Henry Raymond

Fairfax News => Political Issues/Comments => Topic started by: Henry on February 16, 2011, 09:28:46 AM

Title: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: Henry on February 16, 2011, 09:28:46 AM
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Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: Chris Santee on February 16, 2011, 10:27:26 AM
Thanks to the Fairfax Selectboard for providing this information
and thanks to Henry for posting.
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: rod anode on February 16, 2011, 02:06:54 PM
i dont know is 25 grand an acre good price?
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: ohhman on February 16, 2011, 02:20:14 PM
I have been told so;  what I don't think is fair is there were other option(s) & maybe we taxpayers should have had a choice in possible land purchases.  I know a few long/life time residents were not so happy we were given only the one option. 
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on February 16, 2011, 02:35:18 PM
Yes it is an awesome price for being in the growth center of town.  I remember when my Dad was doing the carwash they valued an acre where the carwash is at $98,000. Seems retarded to me but even an acre out of the growth center goes for $25,000 or more.  When I was looking to build a house I was looking at 1.75 acre lot for $65,000 and everyone kept saying that was a really good price!! Looks like I need to move out of state if I want to own land cause no way will I ever be able to afford that!!
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: rod anode on February 16, 2011, 04:12:35 PM
i hear that,after spending all your money on land you wont have any for your house .thats crazy
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: mkr on February 17, 2011, 12:20:49 PM
The location of the land makes sense for the town offices and the price is good for the area.  I am in favor of the purchase.
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: David Shea on February 19, 2011, 09:13:25 AM
My understanding about this parcel of land goes back many years. 

During the period of time when the fire station was being planned an agreement was made between the Town of Fairfax Select Board and Larry and Barb Young.  The agreement was that the Young's property would have access to this parcel through Goodall Street.  In the transition from one select board leadership to the next the handshake agreement "disappeared".

The new board determined that Goodall Street was not adequate to handle the traffic of Fire Trucks as well as added traffic that would follow with development of the 10 acre parcel.  A proposal was put before Larry and Barb that the town would have first right of refusal if the land was ever put up for sale.

A heated disagreement followed as the Young's tried to gain access to the land parcel though the entrance adjacent to the Baptist Building where Young's Excavating Business had been housed for years.  An adjacent landowner contested the access, & the parcel has been isolated for development due to the lack of access.

My question is this, how will the use of Goodall Street as connector to the Young Parcel impact the day to day operation of the fire & rescue departments?  The street was not suitable for a private development, so what has changed to make it usable now?

Second Question, once Fairfax purchases the 10 acre parcel what will become of the existing town building?  Will it have to be demolished?  Will the school want to fix it up?  If we demolish it could we not just build an new building on the existing site.  Demolish the old bus garage at the same time & add more parking?  How will these added cost be paid for?  Not only is Fairfax on the hook for the land, but now we have an obligation to fix, maintain or demolish the current town office.

Buying this parcel may be the best thing for Fairfax?  Once the land is purchased, what are the expected cost for the new town hall, road, power, sewer & water?  400,000.00 & 500,000.00?  It is well known that the Fairfax Sewer Department is limited on allocations and that the town water supply is minimal?  Will we also now be faced with addressing the problems of the water and sewer system by adding an additional load on the system? 

This new load will limit water and sewer allocations to private business that wants to build in the village core.  What is the plan?

Who will be able to use the building?  Is this building going to be accessible to the general public for meetings or will it be closed to the public just like the Fire Department Building is?  ( Yes I know the seniors have use of the building & so do the families of the fire department for their fire department functions )

Will additional town equipment be required to maintain ADA compliance for grounds maint and sidewalk clearing?  Will we have to furnish additional town employees or subcontractors to clear sidewalks and streets?

Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: rod anode on February 19, 2011, 09:45:41 AM
but you want all day kindergarden go figure???????
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: ohhman on February 19, 2011, 11:04:00 AM
NOT ALL want full day k!  Many DO NOT!!!
Good questions David.  I said  from the start: the Young's are good people that have struggled for years with the adjacent landowner fighting them every (or most) step of the way;  will this adjacent landowner fight the town every step of the way if we agree to purchase this land??
Which brings me back to my note earlier, maybe the board should have proposed other possible  properties to choose from......
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: David Shea on February 19, 2011, 06:40:49 PM
Given the land locked nature of this parcel, is it actually worth 25K per acre?

As it currently stands the land can not be used for anything besides a helicopter landing pad because there is not a right of way to access it.  ( Not sure if locally zoning allows for airports )

On another note, Gabe Handy had initially offered a parcel of property to the town at no charge.  This offer was rescinded during the review process for his elderly housing project and the legal battle that followed with regard to water and sewer metering.

An investor in the Page Estates Project, property next to the physical therapy office right off 104, approached the town 2 years ago about selling the property to Fairfax for $245,00.00 +/-.  The developer was in need of selling the property because the town sewer allocations had expired because the ACT 250 process with the state had not been completed.  Fairfax sewer allocations are good for two years, ACT 250 review can take longer.  Since the developer no longer had sewer allocation with the town a need for on site sewer was in order this meant going back to the drawing board and spending more money.

The offer on Page Estates never made it to a vote.  I am not sure why?  The property has now changed hands and a new developer owns it. ( As a side note, I understand that this property has a good water source that may have been able to supplement the current town system.)

Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: ohhman on February 28, 2011, 07:23:34 AM
Just to clarify questions asked @ town mtg on the "other possibilities" of land purchase:  When a land owner was approached about selling land to the town; it's NOT that he didn't want to sell, rather he wasn't expecting that question to be asked, so the land owner had to think about it for a bit; something that has been in your family that long needs some serious consideration & not just a quick answer! Also, the land owner asked for input from a realtor, along with discussing it within his family.  He then went back to the town with his proposal: it could be 6 or 7 acres, Yes, the cost was more per acre then what the other land owners were asking, BUT, the TOTAL cost of that land WAS/IS lower than what the town will be paying for the land they are asking to purchase.  I just wanted to clarify that.
So now ask, before you say yes to that purchase, why is the land being offered so much lower than "the going price" right now?  Could it be as Mr. Shea posed that nothing has been able to happen to that land due to much conflict with adjacent land owner?  Will the town now be going against the adjacent land owner- or land owners NEAR the property?  More legal fees?  That piece of land needs LOTS of variances by the way it sounded @ Town mtg.;  will they be able to widen the road to the fire station? will land owners there not want that? The other possible ways out of there are PRIVATE roads & we can NOT count on using them!  I see it as a piece of propert with lots of  "IFS/ POSSIBILITIES/UNKNOWNS. 
Yes, the price is right...but what about hidden costs: permits/variances/roads......
I am not against the town buying land, but am saying no to that purchase; I am not for spending a quarter of a million for MAYBE ! I think there are other possibilities to be explored & some land owners that 1st said no should be revisited as circumstances in their lives have changed.
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: al brodeur on February 28, 2011, 10:02:16 AM
one question Is it legal to sell landlocked land?
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: Chris Santee on February 28, 2011, 11:11:36 AM
Yes, you may sell landlocked land
and no, this will not be landlocked
as the access is included in the purchase
according to the presentation Saturday.
I have not read the agreement.

I do not support, or oppose this Article.
It's up to the folks of Fairfax.

I do have a feeling of "deja vu" all over again,
as Fairfax turned down an opportunity
to purchase land several years back.

Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: cedarman on February 28, 2011, 01:32:28 PM
I'm with Josh.  I moved to Fairfax a few years ago, and I continue to be dumbfounded at the cost of land here.  My parents' house in Northern NY (a little over 2 hrs from here) was $35,000 in 2002.  That is 3 acres of land and a 3 bdrm house in move-in condition.

The other house I bought before moving to Fairfax is a 3bdrm home on 2.8 acres, on a main highway, very close to the local school there for $25,000 (additional $20K put into repairs). That house is 90 minutes from here.

I find it amazing that $25K / acre is "reasonable" here, but none of us can change that.  I don't think the board should be given the green light without providing more information on expected future cost for many of the items David already discussed.  I'm sure the additional cost (Goodall st. upgrades, site development, building design/construction, etc. will cost millions more).
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: ohhman on February 28, 2011, 01:44:18 PM
I am not sure the land is "landlocked" but just too many unknowns still; too many things to do in order to get the new town office....too many variances I think is the word I should use.  Maybe we should have been provided an agreement to read; but still think there are too many road blocks to this purchase.  Other questions that I have heard now: the road that would need to be put in, the seller has agreed to pay half BUT what is that cost going to be? Seems like a long road to go yet!  What other ideas could be possible for this land? Can't put town garage there so the idea of everything "under 1 roof" doesn't fit.  Since land has not been subdivided, & IF voters feel it's a good idea, can there be less land purchased?  There were people there @ the mtg that had other questions; I wish discussion had NOT ceased.
I am not against a land purchase, but maybe again explore other options.  If all we need is for a new office that meets codes, why do we need more than 2 acres?  Why is the land on the corner of Huntville & Main St being not being considered?  How much space & parking is needed for our Town Office?  Just things that we are hearing.... ( & I did attend an informational mtg the town had a few wks back)
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: Mummy on February 28, 2011, 06:04:12 PM
Just like Full-day Kindergarten, I vote NO!

Listen to the News .... NY state had to close state campgrounds and parks this past year!  State of Vermont had to close rest stops along the Interstate!  I Vote NO and so should YOU!
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: roadkill on March 01, 2011, 11:22:11 AM
Please dont tear down the old bus garage Dave, We need the storage space.
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: mirjo on March 01, 2011, 01:13:13 PM
So, what's wrong with the old Country Pantry site? I forget all the legal ramblings about "town center" qualifications and interest rates... It's an existing building with the infrastructure already in place. Considering the place has historically put out hundreds of breakfasts on a given weekend, I think the water/sewer that exists could handle the town employees. With a few modifications, it would work fine. I would agree with the argument on sprawl if there weren't already existing businesses there...

I think this project needs a little more discussion, before $250K is dropped on a piece of land that honestly, didn't look like a great place for the town office from the perspective of the map.
Title: Re: Fairfax Town Land Purchase Meeting Presentation
Post by: DrewCrash on March 31, 2011, 05:26:23 PM
I am back...and I would like to thank Chris for putting a link to this discussion on FranklinOne.com. And for my following rant, you all have to thank Chris because it's his fault. If he didn't provide the link, I wouldn't have been typing. Do enjoy...

1. The first statement in the presentation is, "A positive direction for the town of Fairfax municipal operations." Where in this presentation does it explain why a positive direction is needed? This is like me saying to my boss, "Hiring 20 people will create positive feedback from the community of Fairfax." Who cares? Why is a positive direction needed? People threatening to quit? Or could there be a true explanation that the town wants to build a new garage. Let's say because the current facility prevents the town from completing its own tire changes and therefor has to spend an extra $200,000 a year on private industry to do tire changes. (Please note this is a complete hypothetical situation I just proposed.) My point is this, will someone explain why the town needs a positive direction by buying this land. What is this Vision 2020. I FEEL LIKE THE LAND HAS TO COME BEFORE WE KNOW OF WHAT THIS VISION IS. Is the vision simply to own land? That's a swell vision.

2. A long range planning tool for the community. A planning tool for what? Someone explain the what first. Identify what the problem is and what is going to be solved by this Vision 2020. Instead we are going to focus on buying land. And since when is a planning tool require land? Why can't we make a long range planning tool for the community first and then whatever those plans are, we execute them. Instead, we are buying land to facilitate community planning. I understand that creator was likely implying that VISION 2020 is the planning tool. But I disagree. I think that the entire planning tool is the land. That is what the entire focus is on, getting land. I feel my argument is well supported by the 3 phase implementation plan.

3. A 3 phase approach to implementation. P1 = LAND ACQUISITION. !!! We have an implementation problem. We are acquiring land. We still have no clue why we are acquiring land. Sure, maybe you want to tell me that the presentation is poor, but that is just it. In any political arena, the issue to getting what you want is by identifying a problem (legitimate or illegitimate) and then convincing the public you can solve it. This is why I keep getting hung up. Those behind this issue continue to tell us we need the land. That is priority 1. When you identify the solution as being the first step, then you have not identified the problem and solved it. Fundamental business problem solving. Is any of this going on? It just doesn't seem like it or maybe I just need to attend town meetings, which I likely won't ever do. (Here is a problem: Fairfax doesn't have public access television. An argument could be made. The statement is true. It would be the town's decision to then determine if they wanted to solve the problem. I would like to note that I wouldn't support tax payer dollars be spent on a public access station.  I would support an online streaming of meetings, if it could be done on the affordable. I'd even pay a small web fee for it.)

We are setting a solution, the land, as the first thing that needs to be done. We don't know how the land is going to be used? What is needed for it? etc...

The second phase is P2 = PLAN / DESIGN. Brilliant. Does anyone think that the plan and design should come first? You identify what you think the problems are. I repeat, we are buying land for something we don't even have a plan or design for. If I give you ten acres to 'play' with, I have feeling someone will do everything they can to best utilize the land which will cost $$$$$$. If you give someone only five acres to 'play' with, they are going to design it to best utilize the land which will cost $$$. The plan and design needs to come FIRST. By planning and designing something, maybe it turns out that we only need 4 acres. Or maybe it turns out that we need 20 acres. WHO KNOWS ?!?!?!?! But this is why you do the planning and design first !!! When you know what you have designed and planned, then you can determine what resources you need. By buying this land without a plan or design, the town's tax dollars are being foolishly spent. I consider all tax dollars to be a resource and I don't like to see waste. What if we spend the $250,000 and then the plan says that the design is going to cost $5,000,000. What if the town doesn't want to spend that? Then what?

PHASE 3 - BUILD




Sorry. I had to get back in my chair. Haven't fallen out of a chair in a long time. Build. I think we should buy the land first, then hire the contractor now for the building phase. See, if we hire the contractor now we can save money.



I love the second slide. You tell me what it's going to do to my taxes. Thank you. But you still haven't told me why we need this land. Or what the long term costs are going to be for the project.

I think I see a slide that is going to tell me why all of this is needed. I probably should have read all of the slides before I started typing. No wait, I think I did read all the slides. But let's review why we are going to buy the land. This is why I have been complaining.

a) Opportunity to buy land at a cheap price in a growth center? SO WE WANT OUR GOVERNMENT TO BUY LAND IN A, AND I QUOTE - GROWTH CENTER !!! WHAT? So we want to take away tax revenue from the town by acquiring the land ourselves? BRILLIANT. This is a good way to generate revenue. If the plan and design came first, maybe my opinion would be different. But all I am reading is that the town wants some inventory of land. Maybe we should buy us a a hook & ladder truck. If we buy one now, we will save money. And you never know, Microsoft my relocate their headquarters to a new 20 story high rise in Fairfax. (I am not serious about the hook & ladder truck.)
b) Relocate town offices. WHY? I have heard rumors as to why, and they make sense. But its not explained. Its not explained if renting office trailers for a year to be able to rebuild on the existing site would be a cheaper plan. Then using the other money to enhance the riverfront park. The argument will be made that the town doesn't own the land or something. So then buy that .10 acres. But explain this.
c) Current town office is inadequate and not ADA compliant. GREAT! I get an explanation to my complaint above. Why is it inadequate? Because someone said so? If it is less than $250,000 to make the building the ADA compliant, then shouldn't we just do that? I don't know. No one explained this to me. Maybe it has been done. I hope it has been done. I am just asking questions and hoping to get answers. If there are very valid reasons, this entire project could be supported. I don't know.
d) Save $$$$....there is on old saying that money makes money. So the theory here is that spending our tax money on this property, we are going to be spending more money and somehow we are going to save? Sounds like the COSTCO theory. I think it's great that you can buy a package of 144 toilet paper rolls. The savings comes out to like $0.10 a roll. The problem is you bought 2 years of toilet paper. You had to spend more to save? If there was more information on this, if it was explained, then maybe this could be supported. I am sure it was done. Just wish there was a way to hear about besides joining a committee or going to meetings. Just tell me how it's going to save money.

My closing arguments: IF THE GLOVE DON'T FIT YOU MUST BUY LAND THEORY:

We are also going to spend 4 years to design the building? Was this decision to purchase the land a decision that has been going on for 4 years? Because it seemed like an awful short period of time from when I learned about the proposal to the time we got to vote on it. But seriously, 4 years? The design process needs 4 years? Build me 10 offices, two conference rooms. Is it that hard? Or is it more complicated than that? I don't know. Maybe there are grand plans that our town office will turn into a building that would make NRG proud of. Maybe they want to build an ice climbing facility like the brilliant idea out of Burlington several years ago.

Ultimately, I can't comprehend why the design and plan phase isn't this first phase. We are just expected to support this in blind trust and hand over our tax money? I understand it seems to be 'short' money on the land for the tax payer, but ultimately it is still $250,000, with additional costs yet unexplained. I feel like a broken record.

Once again, thank you Chris for the link and to Henry for allowing me to make a spectacle of myself. Enjoy the April Fool's Snow Storm !!!