Henry Raymond

Fairfax News => Current News & Events => Topic started by: Chris Santee on September 13, 2011, 10:02:19 PM

Title: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Chris Santee on September 13, 2011, 10:02:19 PM

Gov. Shumlin orders investigation into traffic stop involving migrant farm workers
MONTPELIER – Gov. Peter Shumlin was informed today of a traffic stop on Interstate 89 by a Vermont State Police officer resulting in the detention of two passengers -- including a leader of theVermont Migrant Farmworker Solidarity Project and another farm worker -- and the involvement of the U.S. Border Patrol.

The Governor is concerned by accounts of the incident and ordered an immediate internal investigation to determine the facts of what happened and if Vermont State Police bias-free policies were followed. In addition, he has instructed his legal counsel to lead a review of State Police policies relating to undocumented workers in the state with an eye toward ensuring bias-free policing conduct is observed in all settings.


STATE OF VERMONT DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
VERMONT STATE POLICE PRESS RELEASE
Disorderly Conduct Arrests in Middlesex
Middlesex, VT - 09/13/2011 – Today, September 13 at approximately 2:00PM troopers from the Middlesex Barracks arrested three subjects for disorderly conduct while blocking U.S. Border Patrol vehicles that were attempting to leave the parking lot. John J MacLean, age 51 of Burlington, VT; Brendan O’Neill, age 38 of Underhill, VT; and Avery Brook, age 29 of Burlington, VT were cited and released for Disorderly Conduct a violation of 13 V.S.A. § 1026 (5). All three are scheduled to appear Vermont Superior Court, Washington County Criminal Division, in Barre on November 3rd at 12:00 PM.

At the time of the incident there were five people blocking the driveway to the Middlesex Barracks by locking arms and refusing to allow the U.S. Border Patrol agents to leave. When ordered by troopers to move out of the way two complied, the remaining three refused. MacLean, O’Neill, and Brook were at the Middlesex Barracks objecting to the U.S. Border Patrol transportation of two suspected illegal immigrants from Mexico.

The suspected illegal immigrants were passengers in a vehicle that was stopped by a Vermont State Police trooper for speeding 88MPH in a 65MPH zone on Interstate 89 at mile marker 59, in the town of Middlesex, earlier in the day. Upon stopping the vehicle, the driver provided valid identification and was released with the possibility of a future civil citation.

Through the course of the traffic stop it was learned that the passengers were allegedly residing illegally in the United States. Troopers contacted the U.S. Border Patrol, and Border Patrol agents issued an Immigration Detainer requesting that the Vermont State Police detain the individuals until their arrival to the Middlesex Barracks.

At the time of this press release, both subjects were released by the U.S. Border Patrol with a Notice to Appear at a future date.

“An internal investigation has been order, as well as a review of policies relating to incidents involving undocumented workers in the state to ensure bias-free policing conduct in all settings ,” said Colonel Tom L’Esperance, Director of the Vermont State Police. “The Vermont State Police take seriously the necessity of ensuring fair and humane treatment of all people living and working in Vermont, regardless of their race, ethnicity, immigration status, or other personal criteria.”

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: David Shea on September 14, 2011, 05:41:47 AM

What is the problem here?  Sounds like the VSP were doing their job. 

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on September 14, 2011, 06:34:04 AM

Illegals in Vermont always get a free pass Dave, our state government is much like our federal they don't see just being illegally in the USA as a crime.   

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Loctavious on September 14, 2011, 07:27:07 AM

the problem?  Racial Profiling.  What if they were legal workers?  VSP would have a law suit on their hands that tax payers would pay for.

That was pretty ugly after 9/11 and only served to energize the finatics aborad and victimize the peace-loving nationalities that were/are legal citizens of this country.

Can't pick and choose when we back the law right? 

Fair outcome here?  - give them 30 days to settle affairs make a little more cash ( as they do the grunt work that the rest of us don't want to do around here) before deportation.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on September 14, 2011, 09:16:22 AM

LMAO Loctavios how is this in anyway racial profiling?  The person was speeding and pulled over which is a lawful stop anywhere in the world!! The officer asked for ID and the Illegals did not have any and stated they were illegal !! Pretty cut and dry if you ask me!! 

Also remember the guys that did 9/11 they were all here legally... so the fact that someone is a citizen doesn't really mean crap today.  As for peace-loving nationalities...Well I would say to you maybe go spend sometime on the ground in that area of the world before you categorize them. 

Here is little saying remember.... 90 percent of Muslims are not Terrorist true, but 90 percent of terrorist are Muslim.   

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Loctavious on September 14, 2011, 10:15:39 AM

I wasn't talking about peace-loving nationalities in other countries- i was talking about the ones - living here in the US as citizens legally - that were guilty by association after 9/11. Sure we were all scared - but fear isn't unbiased now is it?  I myself, Havign to fly afterwards was uneasy.  Partly because of the racial threat, partly becuase i thought we were untouchable - that our government was highly effective in protecting us.  I didn't attack it afterwards as where is the productivity in that?

The trooper did NOT have to ask for IDs for everyone in the car - only the driver - thus his reasoning DOES come into question FXDHS.  When you get pulled over - has the policeman ever asked for all IDs of everyone in the car?  Never has that been asked of me.  THUS - unsual behavior that appears to be biased- which would violate their own policies - cut and dry?  Maybe not - if the illegals were acting suspicious or nervous than he HAS probable cause ( though that hasn't been released to the public)

Are you contesting the law?  Interpreting it in your own way?

A little Saying?  From who?  a credible source?  or someone who is biased themselves?    No where did i say illegals should get a free pass nor did i take a stab at local or state government in the process - which is where many arguments/debates go astray - when folks stray from purely factual discussions.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on September 14, 2011, 11:23:46 AM

The little saying it's from a friend that is no longer with us because he died in Iraq 5 years ago. A car loaded with explosives(VBIED) drove at his convoy but instead of shooting it(he would still be alive) he did what his ROE told him to and made hand gestures to try and make them stop!!  You know because people back here in the states like you know all about the Peace-love culture over there in Iraq and were making a stink about the old ROE that was in place.  Those who were fighting there were being to hard on the Iraqi people LOL.  So instead of leaving the decision to shoot up to someone who has been trained to make that decision people back here state side made it for him.

The Men who did 9/11 again were all legally here and residing in the USA.  So i still don't get where weather they are weather here or there makes a difference? A culture is defind by it's people and practices not by where they live in the world. 

Oh and Yes it is very common practice to ask for the ID of everyone in the vehicle!! IT IS CALLED OFFICER SAFETY!!! I want to know who I'm dealing with on a traffic stop!! getting an ID from just the driver doesn't help me much if the guy in the back seat is a wanted murderer!!!

Also how much interaction have you had with people illegally in the USA?  I have had a little bit and I will tell you that any person in uniform shows up and people who are not legal, much like people who are doing something illegal, stick out like a sore thumb.  Not that someone has to act funny for and officer to ask you to identify yourself as long as initial contact(Traffic Stop) was made legally and doesn't infringe on their 4th amendment rights.  Which in my opinion they shouldn't even have because they are not US Citizens.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on September 14, 2011, 11:39:46 AM

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/eating/2011/09/petrol_station_employee_wishes_1.php (http://blogs.houstonpress.com/eating/2011/09/petrol_station_employee_wishes_1.php)

Here is some racial profiling!! I'm assuming that is what you mean by innocent people being targeted

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Loctavious on September 14, 2011, 11:55:25 AM

Lets break this down:

You attack me and assume I'm the "people back in the states" who call the shots ( you're right - let's stop pretending we're civilized because we're not and no one fighing wars, exectuing criminals, walking by homeless on the streets engulfed in alcoholic depression {some of them veterans who's country didn't get them the help they needed} is) because i have an opinion contrary to yours.  You have emotions based on your opinions ( or your opinions generate youR emotions) and your opinins are based on your experiences or more succinctly those of others.  Thus you're allowed to think and feel however you like.  And this allows you to rationalize attacking someone else for the right to have thier opinion based on their experiences ( or those of others just like you do).

You hear someone elses account of an experience and before you think critically, you entrust everthing being told to you, in the manner it is, is purely the facts.  When you probably know that emotions cloud the truth and the facts.  I too have friends and family in the arm services and know have seen what being immersed in such environements can do to a human.  Our Higher thinking brains were not meant for such stress and trauma.  I do not belittle or refute the grotesqueries of war and the evil of enemies who care not for decency, let alone human life.  What I do suggest is that if we do want to be civilized - we come to terms with our biggotry, hypocracy, and arroagnace as a species as these are the root causes of many a conflict..

Common for police to ask for all IDs of everyone in a car WHERE?  and how do you know?  are you a cop?  got a lot of police friends that you'll have back you on this?  even if you did - the fact you don't even consider the possbility of their being bias speaks volumes.  Police are just like you and me - rooted in personal belief and convictions - and they, for the most part, have to and do leave those at home or in the car when they're on duty.  NOT all can though - just as not all of us CAN not speak our biases in every day life 

Just as your friend thats no longer with us ( god bless and rest their soul and sacrafice) made the saying up  it was surely more about the region and hell they were in - not here - which is what we're talking about - lets not keep trying to change the venue.  I don't think you'd go into a mosque in VT or New York and recount your saying.   As you would surely look prejudiced and biggoted.  And i have to think you're not that at all - just passionate.

We are a nation built on immigrants.  We are the richest nation in the world - living amongst one of the poorest and unsecure nations - of course they want in.... they want what we have it's all they see.  Nevermind the cost of it wepay every day.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: GamingWeasel on September 14, 2011, 03:57:18 PM

The opinions of people who personally attack others in what is supposed to be a civil discussion, are almost never based on facts.  These people generally "believe" rather than "think", regardless of the facts.

I work in immigration enforcement, and I find some of the comments here too silly to be worth addressing.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Thor on September 14, 2011, 04:57:56 PM

Dave,

     I agree with you, it sounds like VSP were just doing their jobs. Perhaps they can solve this problem by rewording their statement....

 “The Vermont State Police take seriously the necessity of ensuring fair and humane treatment of all people living and working in Vermont, regardless of their race, ethnicity, immigration status, or other personal criteria.” 

     and replace "immigration status" with "people who are legal immigrants". If they are here illegally, then they are already criminals and as such, deserve to be treated in a manner appropriate. I'll bet Shumlin makes this his pet project and ensures that these mugs get free health care, in state tuition to UVM, access to free legal representation in order to submit a lawsuit against VSP, etc....

     If they are here illegally, they are not protected by Constitutional rights. And they have been given a "notice to appear" by the Customs and Border Patrol folks, which equates to a "notice to disappear".

Josh,

     Isn't 25mph over the speed limit "reckless driving/endangerment", and warrant such a request from the VSP officer? I would think that this traffic stop, and the request for identification from all occupants is justified in this instance.
     














     

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Scott on September 14, 2011, 04:58:28 PM

LEO's had every right to ask for ID.
Key word being "ASK". ;)
 

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Thor on September 14, 2011, 05:06:43 PM

Great point Scott.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Corm on September 14, 2011, 06:07:14 PM

In my humble opinion, the VSP did their job exactly as it should be done. I agree completely with what Thor and David Shea, and most of what FXDHS, had to say. I don't understand why people are upset about this. Those folks are here illegally, send them home!

Corm

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: cu_soon_pam on September 14, 2011, 11:23:56 PM

It is most defenitely common practice for VSP to check the Ids of all in the car. That has been the case every time I have been stopped. And I am a red blooded legal semi law abiding citizen.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Mike Raburn on September 15, 2011, 12:04:02 AM

88 in a 65?

Something goofy going on there.

Hell, here in Alaska, you get tazed for that.
No matter what flavor you are.

Troopers did their job and your Gov is cya, that is a good thing.
Silly, but good.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: rod anode on September 15, 2011, 04:43:06 AM

mike i need to know what cya is?  Our govenor is an idiot and deserves no respect

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Thor on September 15, 2011, 05:22:51 AM

Ed,

    CYA = cover your a_s. It is a skill that most politicians are intimately familiar with. I believe they learn it in the same class, when they learn about shirking responsibility, casting blame, lying through their teeth (very difficult unless practiced), and reckless spending!

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: cedarman on September 15, 2011, 10:15:38 AM

In my experience, police routinely ask everyone who looks over 16 for identification.   That sounds like pretty standard practice/procedure.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: mkr on September 15, 2011, 11:01:26 AM

When I was pulled over when I was younger, a few times, everyone was asked for their ID's in the car.

Yes they are illegal, and like others said will start getting benefits and assistance, which really boils my blood.  I have friends who work their butts off, pay into the system and barely can put food on the table right now and can't get health insurance.

Yes we are a nation built on immigrants, come legally and I welcome you. Work and pay into the system like everyone else...

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: al brodeur on September 15, 2011, 12:56:03 PM

my belief is that when anyone is pulled over a positive ID of all people should be done along with an outstanding warrent check, how many times after a horrific incident is it made known that just before this pillarof the community was apprended and then released only to be able to mug grannie as she left the bingo game

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Mike Raburn on September 16, 2011, 12:01:04 AM

Thank you Thor for 'splaining to Special Ed. I can say that here, Si??

Special ED, YOUR Gov is an idiot????????
I refer you to my 10678 other posts about our Gov that quit.

MKR, a few times??? Pulled over?
Hmmmmmmm..... Bartels & James?

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Sue W. on September 16, 2011, 05:40:16 AM

The response by Gov. Shumlin really makes me mad.  "Looking the other way" is not an acceptable form of dealing with laws in my opinion.  Will it be the precedence for other laws to be viewed in that manner?  Will other types of employers think they can hire illegals for less money than they are currently paying "legal" employees because officials will be "looking the other way"? 

The state policeman did his job, and should have been supported by the Governor.  I want to live in a state where laws are upheld.  And, the people responsible for seeing they are, are valued for doing so.

Thank you for allowing me to vent my frustration. 

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on September 16, 2011, 05:54:18 AM

Quote from: Sue W. on September 16, 2011, 05:40:16 AM

The state policeman did his job, and should have been supported by the Governor.  I want to live in a state where laws are upheld.  And, the people responsible for seeing they are, are valued for doing so.

AMEN!!!!!!

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Thor on September 16, 2011, 06:20:16 AM

And can we imagine how much easier the performance of state police and local law enforcement officers jobs would be if the hosed up federal gov't actually did their job and enforced the law and protected the integrity of our borders and our citizens. But the fed's continue to file lawsuits against states that have decided to stiffen their efforts against the illegals. Kinda makes one wonder what the fed's and administration are thinking. Oh yea.... it might revolve around getting votes.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: David Shea on September 16, 2011, 08:35:40 AM

Peter Shumlin has a rich history with VSP.  Remember his speeding ticket last fall & how it somehow vanished into thin air?

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Thor on September 16, 2011, 08:39:19 AM

Is that right Dave? Hell if we can get the speeding ticket back and just make Shumlin disappear!! I will pay the ticket!!

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Chris Santee on September 16, 2011, 09:48:57 AM

http://www.wptz.com/news/29199164/detail.html?treets=pla&tid=26511198156813&tml=pla_7am&tmi=pla_7am_1_09000109162011&ts=H (http://www.wptz.com/news/29199164/detail.html?treets=pla&tid=26511198156813&tml=pla_7am&tmi=pla_7am_1_09000109162011&ts=H)

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Mike Raburn on September 17, 2011, 02:33:28 AM

Quote from: Chris Santee on September 16, 2011, 09:48:57 AM

http://www.wptz.com/news/29199164/detail.html?treets=pla&tid=26511198156813&tml=pla_7am&tmi=pla_7am_1_09000109162011&ts=H (http://www.wptz.com/news/29199164/detail.html?treets=pla&tid=26511198156813&tml=pla_7am&tmi=pla_7am_1_09000109162011&ts=H)

Are you kidding me???????

Look the other way?

Special Ed, you hit the nail on the head!

unreal.

I'd be interested in hearing from Farm Owner's that really need to hire undocumented workers.
I-9s, I have to fill them out at work on a job-site.

How bad do Owners need undocumented workers in VT or anywhere?

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Loctavious on September 20, 2011, 07:56:28 AM

Hmmmm Shumlin's only been govenor for what?  and it's always been VTs position to look the other way.... and the govenor for that last few terms has been.... a republican?  But Douglas didn't get any heat for that.  Do soem research into how many Vters are lining up outside of farms to work there.... or protesting that there's illegals working for cheaper wages then them... matter of fact - research that in California, Texas, and all southern border states and please bring the credible resources and results back to this forum.

Folks want laws to be followed eh?  Only when they serve and agenda or heated position - such as illegal workers - so it's ok to recially profile if they look to be here illegally - and ok if that tropper was wrong and we pay for the potential civil suit. Ok I see these positions clearer now.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: GamingWeasel on September 20, 2011, 09:23:06 AM

Locatavius, if you are intending try to change the minds of ideologues with facts, you’ll be embarking on a futile effort.  It never works. ;)

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Chris Santee on September 20, 2011, 12:40:02 PM

Douglas never caught heat ??
Are you kidding me, how long are your memories, gentlemen ?

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Chris Santee on September 20, 2011, 01:06:36 PM

http://www.7dvt.com/2007/gov-douglas-stumbles-several-fronts (http://www.7dvt.com/2007/gov-douglas-stumbles-several-fronts)

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on September 21, 2011, 05:19:42 AM

Quote from: Loctavious on September 20, 2011, 07:56:28 AM

research that in California, Texas, and all southern border states and please bring the credible resources and results back to this forum.

Using California to back any claim on Immigration Policy is probably not the best route, they have the worst State government debt problem in the US!!! Highest Crime rate in the US and more then double the number of Mexican gangs then any other state in the US.  A prison system that eats tax dollars by housing over 22,000 Illegal criminals at any given time.  The lack of Immigration Enforcement is working out really well for them!!! LOL

GamingWeasel,

If you are so anti Immigration Enforcement then why do you work for ICE?  Isn't your job to find Illegals and remove them from our country?

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on September 21, 2011, 05:40:14 AM

Quote from: Chris Santee on September 20, 2011, 01:06:36 PM

http://www.7dvt.com/2007/gov-douglas-stumbles-several-fronts (http://www.7dvt.com/2007/gov-douglas-stumbles-several-fronts)

Stop it Chris!!! We are all just a bunch of dumb right wingers bashing on Shumlin because he is a Democrat. LOL



 

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Loctavious on September 21, 2011, 06:18:20 AM

...yoru words... not mine.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: GamingWeasel on September 21, 2011, 09:46:31 AM

If you are so anti Immigration Enforcement then why do you work for ICE?  Isn't your job to find Illegals and remove them from our country?
[/quote]

You've completely misunderstood, apparently.  I think there should be smart, effective, efficient, and fair enforcement.   It is essential to realize that serious issues or questions do not have a yes/no or black/white answer.  It just isnt that simple when you are dealing with complicated real-world problems.  Those who think such problems can be solved with emotional partisan rhetoric are only making it harder to solve them, because of all the empty sound and fury.  Ideologues of every political persuasion fall victim to the “us vs them” mentality, which only adds to the chaos.  It’s a huge waste of time and energy.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Chris Santee on September 21, 2011, 09:52:41 AM

I did not bash Shumlin.
I refreshed some memories, I hope.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: mirjo on September 21, 2011, 01:44:11 PM

Chris' link is just proof that there are no winners in politics and rarely situations that are clearly right or wrong. And the immigration issue, like every other, is just a matter of opinion and what one's opinion is, seems pretty much determined by the political stripes being worn.

What is the issue here, really? Illegal  aliens being allowed to work illegally. Aside from the "incident" that took place and the obvious republican complaints about the current governor, (who could never do anything right in their eyes, even if he changed water into wine right before them) that is the heart of the matter isn't it? The fact that Vt has a soft policy to look the other way or whatever, just seems to be something for haters to complain about when the overall illegal immigrant policy has been one of "looking the other way" for many, many years.

Let's 1st ask  why there are illegals left in the country and 2nd, why we're still talking about it when congress was supposedly talking reform ages ago? Um, let me guess what happened this last time: the Democrats AND Republicans couldn't compromise on a fair way to proceed so they dropped it and did NOTHING. Why the problem hasn't been addressed for years before that, I couldn't say. Probably more of the same.

Yes, perhaps Gov. Douglas took a little whipping from Peter Freyne, for his "soft stance" on the illegals issue with his in-laws, but who didn't get nailed once or twice in politics, by Peter? No one here has really piped up about the shoe being on that particular other foot, because that's how it works when ascribing to a single and particular ideology: blinders go up to anything else except one black and white point of view. Few things are ever simply one way or another and this is one that isn't, as the record shows.

As for farmers needing the immigrant help, sadly it's a documented fact (Look in the WCAX archives or BFP and you will find news stories from a year or so ago on a farm in Franklin County and others). I believe Loctavious mentioned how people here don't want to be farm hands/don't want the low paying jobs that these people are doing. I don't know if "looking the other way,"  is how the illegal immigration issue should be handled, but it's a federal issue that needs to be resolved and clearly a bipartisan humanitarian way of doing things is needed. If the feds can't handle it, then maybe individual states need to act on it appropriately.

If many Mexicans have come here "illegally" and have been able to live, work, raise families here for years "illegally" and the US government  hasn't ever done ANYTHING about it, isn't it kind of a joke at this point? We hear a great deal of complaining (at least on this forum) about how they come to the US and drain off the welfare system,  logically that hardly seems likely, so I did a little research:

http://blog.chron.com/immigration/2008/01/illegal-immigrants-on-welfare-fact-or-fiction/
 (http://blog.chron.com/immigration/2008/01/illegal-immigrants-on-welfare-fact-or-fiction/)
Should illegals be allowed into the country? No, since it's considered breaking the law; however, there needs to be consistency in how to handle these things, which doesn't appear to be happening anywhere.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: mkr on September 21, 2011, 01:57:21 PM

Lisa,

I get where you are coming from.  But like every other topice we could choose, you can find another side of the story online.  I do agree 100% that their should be one way to handle these things for sure!


http://www.illegalimmigrationstatistics.org/

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: rod anode on September 21, 2011, 02:42:12 PM

i bashed shumlin there huckleberry not chris

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: al brodeur on September 21, 2011, 08:16:41 PM

in a previous comment by MIRJO it was stated that an illegal research had been done by a congressional team they overlooked some items IE illegals get no welfare etc explain this then at the time of obama's election it was made public that he had an aunt living in Boston in public housing and that she was an illegal, since then she has been granted political amnesty.
now how about obamas uncle last week in Boston an illegal  now with a dui
there is a procedure spelled out for coming into this country it is the law both the president and atty general should be impeached because they blatantly refuse the laws that they are supposed to uphold and enforce,maybe this is for their future gain.---amnesty?

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: mirjo on September 21, 2011, 09:33:40 PM

Well now, don't  I look foolish for saying both sides of the aisle look the other way and refuse to compromise on this illegal immigrant issue.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on September 22, 2011, 05:45:20 AM

Quote from: al brodeur on September 21, 2011, 08:16:41 PM

illegals get no welfare etc explain this then at the time of obama's election it was made public that he had an aunt living in Boston in public housing and that she was an illegal, since then she has been granted political amnesty.

100 percent true Al, here is something else that is interesting. Try finding another person from Kenya that has been granted Asylum without being a victim of a crime in the past!! When you do let me know because I haven't ever even heard of another case from Kenya let alone someone who has been granted Asylum for no reason!!   If she was fleeing her country because of a hardship why didn't she say that to begin with instead of living in Tax funded housing illegally for 2 years!! If a US citizen had committed fraud and falsified documents to scam tax payers for 2 years...... they would have gone to jail, or at least would have had to pay restitution for the amount they stole from the tax payers.  Of course none of that happened in this case instead she was given a free pass and continues to live on the tax payers dollars.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: mary on September 22, 2011, 11:44:20 AM

US Dept of Justice, Exec. Office for Immigration Review publishes its asylum statistics online.  Nationality:  KENYA

            RECEIVED          GRANTED         DENIED      ABANDONED    WITHDRAWN           OTHER

2010:     297       90       116       15       44       76
2009:   377       97          94       20       36       66
2008:   366       60          75        9       41       68
2007:    258       51          82       10       45       71
2006:   253       60        120       15       36       78


(Public radio broadcasts the BBC early in the morning, including fairly regular coverage of Kenya. Reconciling distant memories of the beauty of its people and and stark terrain with this century's turmoil is difficult - likely why I am posting on Vtgrandpa in the middle of the day rather than keeping to task! Politics in Kenya is rough stuff. Bloodshed surrounding the 2007 elections has been horrific. Yesterday’s coverage included updates on politicians facing charges in the International Criminal Court in the Hague for crimes against humanity.  Allegations include those against the deputy prime minister, former ministers and ex-police chief of being responsible for orchestrating the widespread violence.  Charges seem to focus on 1,2000+ civilian deaths with more than 500,000 people fleeing their homes in the violence. The accused have publically denied direct links the murders, forcing people from their homes, rape and persecution. )     

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: mirjo on September 22, 2011, 12:20:42 PM

Quote

Lisa,

I get where you are coming from.  But like every other topic we could choose, you can find another side of the story online.  I do agree 100% that their should be one way to handle these things for sure!

mk:

I totally agree, unfortunately the way of the press is such that it's nearly impossible to find unbiased reporting, which makes it difficult to believe any news source on the internet or TV. a lot of online "papers" are blogs written by people who aren't journalists and know nothing about reporting news. They just give their own opinion or a one-sided perspective. The political party writing the piece, determines which way it sways. It's important to read what everyone is up to, because it's the only way to get an accurate picture--on any subject. What's most interesting in the link you posted is the young girl who is doing a research paper. She nails the heart of the matter on the head, I think. Here are her comments and questions:

Quote

There seems to be a lot of crazy people with some very strong opinions writing  about immigration laws and policy. The mass amount of conversations on the web, ranging from, “I hate those Illegals,” to “Let my people go free,” makes it hard to just find out the, “Why” of illegal immigration.

1. Why do people immigrate to the US illegally? Is it that bad in Mexico?

2. How do they get here illegally? Does every one of them stow away in a semi truck trailer?

3. Why is illegal immigration a problem? Are current Americans afraid of Native American descendants taking back land?

4. Does anybody believe President Obama is doing anything about illegal immigration in the United States?

As seen here, this just goes round and round, like a dog chasing its tail, except the dog is amusing. ;-)

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Chris Santee on September 22, 2011, 12:24:38 PM

I hope we can all agree that we're very lucky to be living here !

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: tankkingvt on September 22, 2011, 01:46:36 PM

I am totally in favor of racial profiling if it concerns enforcement of state and/or federal law. 

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: al brodeur on September 22, 2011, 07:53:55 PM

for law enforcement I am all for profiling IE in southern jersey the state troopers are supposed to have had an 80% arrest and conviction rate for drug runners but that was racial profiling so it had to stop. but the biggest profilers go on and on they are the insurance co,
your familyhistory is usedfor life and health ins, drivers record and location for auto insurance location of your home and fire company rating for home owners and fire insurance it goes on and on

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Henry on September 23, 2011, 07:28:46 AM

Police are identifying the driver of a truck pulled over during a controversial traffic involving suspected illegal immigrants.
 
50-year-old William Hoag was clocked going 88 in a 65mph zone.
 
The Randolph Center man only received a warning even though a motorist driving that speed is typically eligible for for a $227 traffic ticket.
 
That information and the driver's name were provided to Burlington Free Press following a public records request.
 
The two undocumented farm workers were arrested. The state is now reviewing the stop to see if police followed Vermont's bias- free policy.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Dick Brown on September 23, 2011, 08:41:56 AM

Henry ,    As I'm sure others did also , I viewed the video of the traffic stop provided to the BFP by the VSP in yesterday's on-line edition . The trooper seemed concerned about safety on the highway , pointing out the rate of speed involved , empathetic to the immigrants problems , adhering to VSP guidelines and policy , and courteous to the passengers . If the potential lawsuit has any intention of showing this trooper as biased , certainly much more must have happened later , since I think he was doing his job and following current practices and policies . The investigation ordered by the Governor should most certainly show that the VSP who have traffic control on the highways operate in an unbiased manner and will force whoever would bring the suit to provide more then superficial possibilities .
A good and trusted friend of mine , now retired from law enforcement , always stressed one should investigate their own institution as to whether policies and procedures were followed prior to other agencies or groups coming forward to force queries. In cases like this , stonewalling rarely is successful and results usually provide needed support to the personnel .
In this case , it would appear that the Governor followed the path laid out by my law enforcement friend and that the VSP personnel , at least on the front lines , are doing their job correctly .     

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Kathleen on September 23, 2011, 10:54:06 AM

This case may not bode well for the VSP now that the driver was let off with just a warning for speeding more than 20mph over the speed limit.  One could question whether this was a set-up.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Thor on September 24, 2011, 09:57:25 AM

Perhaps Kathleen is onto something here. Maybe we all "assumed" that Shumlin launched an investigation into VSP policies and procedures regarding the illegal immigrants... but in fact, launched an investigation into why the Trooper gave up an opportunity to collect $227 in revenue. If this is the case, my bet is that the Trooper gets dismissed and the illegals are put into the Vermont State Police Training Academy, as their language skills will assist in future VSP encounters with other illegals.

Yup, I bet that's it!

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Scott on September 24, 2011, 05:10:00 PM

All the information given to the LEO was consensual . It was just another fishing trip that got a nice hook.

How different this story could of been if the parties involved just remained silent.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Thor on September 24, 2011, 06:44:28 PM

Will also be a great day when it is no big deal how LE personnel interdict/arrest/detain illegals, and the illegals are then immediately processed for transfer to the closet port of their country of origin. Obviously we would have to foot the bill for their transfer back, but it would certainly be less than what they cost the system now.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on October 13, 2011, 05:22:26 AM

http://www.wcax.com/story/15680317/vt-trooper-cleared-in-migrant-farmworker-traffic-stop (http://www.wcax.com/story/15680317/vt-trooper-cleared-in-migrant-farmworker-traffic-stop)

CLEARED!!!! doing their job by the book!! It's to bad this even made the news I feel bad for the trooper!!!

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Chris Santee on October 13, 2011, 06:15:40 AM

The State Police Advisory Commission (SPAC) is a statutorily created body appointed by the Governor.  One of the duties of SPAC is to provide advice and counsel to the Commissioner of Public Safety regarding internal investigations and discipline.  In that role, SPAC has reviewed the internal investigation conducted in response to an allegation that Trooper Jared Hatch violated the Vermont State Police Bias Free Policy when he detained two illegal immigrants during a motor vehicle stop on September 13, 2011.  SPAC has also examined Trooper Hatch’s actions to determine whether there was a violation of related policies concerning investigative motor vehicle stops and victim’s assistance.

After giving due consideration to information gathered in the course of the investigation, SPAC has reached the following conclusions:

1.  Trooper Hatch had probable cause to believe that a motor vehicle violation – excessive speed – had occurred and therefore his stop of the vehicle was lawful.  Additionally, the decision to stop the vehicle was not motivated by the passengers’ actual or perceived race, color or national origin because the occupants of the vehicle were not visible to Trooper Hatch at the time that he initiated the stop.

2.  Trooper Hatch was both courteous and expeditious in his handling of the motor vehicle stop.

3.   During the stop Trooper Hatch made observations which, based upon his extensive training particularly in the area of drug interdiction, alerted him to the possibility that persons within the vehicle were engaged in criminal conduct.  These observations included excessive nervousness and inconsistent answers on the part of the passengers as well as failure to make eye contact.

4.   Trooper Hatch’s questioning of the passengers was not motivated by the passengers’ actual or perceived race, color or national origin.  The questioning by Trooper Hatch was consistent with the approach he has utilized in other stops irrespective of race, color or national origin and was in keeping with training that he has received as a law enforcement officer.

5.    The passengers did not constitute crime victims or witnesses under Vermont State Police policy and therefore it was not improper for Trooper Hatch to ask about immigration status or to report the immigration status of the passengers to the appropriate authorities.

Based upon the foregoing conclusions, SPAC is of the opinion that the actions of Trooper Hatch were free of improper bias and in compliance with all applicable policies.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Dick Brown on October 13, 2011, 07:29:58 AM

I'm pleased that the investigation cleared the Trooper ,as most viewers of the video on the BFP on-line would probably agree was the correct thing to do , and glad also that the advisory group found the VSP had not violated it's own policy . However , the question remains , why was a warning mailed to the driver instead of a $ 266.00 ticket being issued for the traffic violation ? 

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: trussell on October 13, 2011, 08:14:37 AM

Mr. Brown, it's not uncommon to receive a warning as most departments in Vermont don't have "quotas" anymore.  I know an officer who issues a warning after he writes 3 tickets (unless the person is a jerk).

Unfortunately, I have only received tickets (probably because of my association with Rod Anode)

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on October 13, 2011, 08:34:19 AM

I have yet to ever receive a ticket but I have received a few warnings.  From what I hear though it is easy for people to get out of tickets in Vermont, wait maybe that's only if you're running for Governor. LOL

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Dick Brown on October 13, 2011, 02:55:14 PM

I'm sure you're right about the new pattern of issuing warnings , but I still think that , somewhere in the VSP chain of command or above that
( possibly maybe a Federal decision ), a directive was issued to the Trooper , or to his Superior , to utilize the warning protocol rather then issue the ticket , probably a PC action . I'm guessing that it might not be fair , but probably practical. Wonder what a VSP Trooper does with the next driver speeding at 88 mph on I-89 ???

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Chris Santee on October 13, 2011, 03:24:00 PM

Trevor ?

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Kathleen on October 14, 2011, 09:08:18 AM

A warning for doing 20mph over the speed limit? Are you kidding me? When you discipline children, you need consistency for the punishment to teach the child not to do the action again. Why would you only sometimes give a ticket and expect the enforcement of the rules to work?  And why wouldn't everybody get the same enforcement of the rules. 
If it was a case of always a warning for a first-time offense, okay but it needs to be enforced that way for everyone, not just when the officer feels like giving this person a break and ticketing the next one.
We have rules/laws for a reason and the key to teaching people to follow those rules is the same as for a child -- CONSISTENT enforcement.

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: trussell on October 14, 2011, 02:35:42 PM

No idea.  If it were ME speeding, I'm sure I'd get a ticket... :)

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Thor on October 14, 2011, 07:03:31 PM

Trevor,

     Didn't you get a very expensive hamburger one time with regards to a ticket?

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: trussell on October 14, 2011, 10:27:42 PM

Thor, that was my wife's very expensive hamburger.  Twice. :)

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Mike Raburn on October 15, 2011, 03:33:22 AM

Them dern ladie folk

http://www.vtgrandpa.com/forum/index.php?topic=12815.0 (http://www.vtgrandpa.com/forum/index.php?topic=12815.0)

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Dick Brown on October 18, 2011, 05:56:08 AM

Henry                                 Today's on-line BFP has a continuing story on the " The Traffic Stop " and the factors taking place in the decision
making process as a result of that stop. It certainly looks to me like VSP Trooper Hatch did his job the correct way,  which is not surprising but , given the pressures that were exerted that day on I-89 , knowing what he knew about the possibilities of litigation, very commendable .
I don't know how to link this BFP article up to the forum , but perhaps you or someone else could do that .   

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Henry on October 18, 2011, 07:05:07 AM

Dick, is this the article you were referring to??

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20111017/NEWS03/110170302/Farm-workers-Vermont-governor-discuss-immigration-issues?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s (http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20111017/NEWS03/110170302/Farm-workers-Vermont-governor-discuss-immigration-issues?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s)

Title: Re: Migrant Farmers Traffic Stop in Vermont
Post by: Dick Brown on October 18, 2011, 07:36:11 AM

Yep   Thanks for the assistance . Hope this is a great Fairfax day.....raining hard in Punta Gorda , but nowhere close to Irene's downpour and we need it .