Henry Raymond

Fairfax News => Current News & Events => Topic started by: Loctavious on November 09, 2011, 04:11:19 PM

Title: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Loctavious on November 09, 2011, 04:11:19 PM
Spoke to a few locals today who say they're sick of hoping the marginal law enforcement coverage will deter/catch the recent criminals to canvass the area.  Though usually law abiding citizens ( to my knowledge ) the theme kept coming back to takign matters in their own hands.  I know we all enjoy the occasional cathartic thought of personal justice, but this talk was definitely beyond that.  No objection or reasoning i interjected seemed to corral them away from taking to roads in search for a scumbag to 'take care of'.  Glad they consider me a friendly acquanitance is all i can say after hearing some of their conversations about how they'd 'bring' the scumbags to justice.....

Lets all say a prayer for those violated......... and that frustrated citizens get some justice with the apprehension of these criminals and the return of stolen properties.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: rod anode on November 09, 2011, 06:24:43 PM
pray ? you believe in god? i thought all liberals were athiests
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Rev. Elizabeth on November 09, 2011, 06:37:49 PM
Perhaps, Ed, you don't know many liberals!!!!! (and oh, that's a capital G by the way)
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: 7F24 on November 09, 2011, 07:11:29 PM
You are right Ed.  We have a lot of nerve using the word God when we believe in things like feeding the hungry, health care for everyone, and avoiding wars that don't need to be fought.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: vtoutdoorguymb on November 09, 2011, 11:16:18 PM
Well said!
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: rod anode on November 10, 2011, 04:41:18 AM
thank you,sorry beth your right
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on November 10, 2011, 06:18:24 AM
There is only so much people can take and I think it is getting to that point for some.  Times are hard enough for people without some free loader coming to steal the things you work hard for. 

Do I condone people going out hunting for individuals they see as the problem? HELL NO!! you just become part of the problem at that point. 


That being said though, if I catch someone in my home, trying to steal my property, they don't have to worry about the cops getting called.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Loctavious on November 10, 2011, 08:30:21 AM
As long as they're over the threshold of your home right?...... and without CSI - Las Vegas style folk around here, who'd know if you dragged them there right?  :)

seriously though - I feel the pain - what ARE folks to do when there isn't enough of a police force to actually patrol and deter?

My house, which is nearby the one that was broken into yesterday had the SAME thing done abotu 5 years ago.  Though that free-loader was looking for guns and prescription drugs (the drugs he did find surely made him sick as they were 6 years old).  Afterwards, i boobytrapped the house everytime we left it for like 3 months.  Just glad i didn't get that ice pick to the head during that time.   
I feel the pain of the folks who have been violated for sure.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: 7F24 on November 10, 2011, 08:43:43 AM
Never booby-trap a house.  You will only end up hurting a family member, or an emergency responder trying to save your home, or some other innocent person.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: David Shea on November 10, 2011, 08:58:56 AM
Vote down the Franklin County Sheriffs Contract.  Fleecing of Fairfax is job one.  Speeding tickets for hard working citizens, but ineffective against stopping criminals.
Don't fall for the "we are only contracted for 40 hours".  More hours will not solve the problem.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Thor on November 10, 2011, 12:45:34 PM
There are a number of things that one can attempt to accomplish with regards to safeguarding their homes. Probably the most functional for all of us is CPTED. Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design. Take a good hard look at your home and see if you have things that are "assisting" the scum in making their decisions on whether or not your home is a "soft target". Lighting, trees, shrubbery close to the house, etc... Alot of us have homes set back from the main roads, which in and of itself can assist the scumbags in their decision making. With that said, perhaps establishing our own routine patrols whenever possible. Good communications with neighbors can help. We can solve this problem, in fact we have to, as the police are always minutes away when seconds count.

Loctavious, not sure you should be so concerned about the talk of some concerned and frustrated citizens, when you actually "booby-trapped" your house for 3 months after your home was invaded. Had an intruder been injured/killed, reentering your home while it was booby-trapped, you would have been standing tall in front of the man, with possible civil lawsuit from the scumbag to follow.

Josh, I think we know how to solve this problem. Gotta start developing a network, just like the bad guys have. Ops are driven through intel, and intel drives ops.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Loctavious on November 10, 2011, 02:13:31 PM
Thor, Civil lawsuits - suck!  Thus why i did stop and why i was advised electrifying the back door handle was DEFINITELY a bad idea for that reason. 
       Vigilanteism is more actively seeking justice - if you want to call 'boobytrapping' vigilanteism - i'd call it a passive form of it.

Someone commented in the other thread about how they put a sign up sayign smile you're on camera - that's the route my wife took after my old-brained ( or hot-headed ) approach proved to be inappropriate.  Who knows if it worked, but it can't hurt.

       
 
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Thor on November 10, 2011, 02:37:56 PM
Totally understand.... and hot headed or old brained is a completely reasonable response to an invasion. Emotional responses tend to be that way, but then when one sits back and thinks things through, usually level-headedness (if that's a word) prevails. I tend to stay on the emotional response for alot longer than the average person. I would love to be the one who compromises these scumbags. As I mentioned in my previous post, CPTED can really assist. And one of the first things recommended is signage. This area under surveillance, security company signs, and even the old sign that reads "if you can read this, then you are in range". 
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Mummy on November 10, 2011, 03:38:43 PM
Why can't neighbors just look out for each other?  In our part of town when we see a strange car and we are out site, we waive just to let them know we see them or get in the car and drive down the road to see who that person is who is walking just to get a better look at them.  One of my neighbor's did just that then asked the  person for their name and where they lived and what business did they have in our area?  You can ask, doesn't mean they will tell the truth but if they know someone is watching, they wont be back!
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Thor on November 10, 2011, 06:36:37 PM
Mummy,

     I think on the whole, the community does this. They seem to try to get the information out to everyone about things when they happen, they report suspicious vehicles, persons, and actions. But these scumbags are not doing their dirty deeds during the time when folks are at home. These are daytime breakins. They have their techniques for determining whether anyone is home or not, whether it is through an actual door knock or from observation or information gathered from other sources. We just have to remain vigilant, help each other out, and hope that we catch these POS's before they do anything else. 
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: LauriH on November 10, 2011, 07:33:06 PM
Mummy, If someone approaches me as I am out walking down the road and starts interrogating me, I am going to tell them to go pound sand as I am whipping out my cell phone to dial 911 because I have no idea what this person's intentions are toward me.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Mark82 on November 10, 2011, 09:33:19 PM
Probably not going to get any better with the Department of Corrections releasing more "non-violent "inmates into the communities!
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Mike Raburn on November 11, 2011, 01:12:44 AM
thank you,sorry beth your right

That's REV,,, to you Sir.

And by the way, I get reported to a moderator????

No justice, No Sleep..... I will go occupy my tent in Nome.

goodness!
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Loctavious on November 11, 2011, 08:42:57 AM
Well said Thor.  When i am home- i wish i had the time to sit on the deck and watch the happenings around me... alas the gears of our society continue to turn and thus so must we.

I know the critter cam suggestion is more and more appealing as of late.

I agree that curiousity is a good thing in soem regards could go a long way.  But I aslo see the point about takign it too far.  A person walking down the road...... that would be going to far..... unless they've come from a parked car.

But then - that could open a whole other can of worms as we see people walking down the road, from parked cars/trucks, WITH rifles in their hands..... yet most of make the assumption they're just hunters.
 
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Thor on November 11, 2011, 10:17:19 AM
Do not forget that "confronting" someone does not have to be negative or hostile or interrogative. I teach classes on how people can make contact with "suspicious" folks and simply engage them in conversation. All the while they are gathering pertinent intell on the individual. Getting a read on dress, appearance, posture, and social response. I would highly recommend that no one, turn a simple meeting into an "aggressive confrontation". But always be prepared to report anything suspicous immediately upon the encounter. Write the info down, image the person from afar with the cell phone, call your home or cell and leave all the pertinent info on your voice mail. Call a neighbor and provide the description, etc.... The problem nowadays is that people are afraid to be the one who cries wolf. But we do not have to cry wolf everytime. We just need to keep our finger on the pulse of the encounter, maintain situational awareness (at all times) of things that are out of the norm and so on. But in order to maintain situational awareness, one must first be aware of what the "norm" is.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Mummy on November 11, 2011, 11:43:15 PM
Yup, you are right!  This is what a community watch does and usually during the daylight hours retirees or stay at home mom's do see more than you realize.  You just need to ask them and living in a Bedroom Community it doesn't come easy doing so.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on November 15, 2011, 10:54:18 AM

Josh, I think we know how to solve this problem. Gotta start developing a network, just like the bad guys have. Ops are driven through intel, and intel drives ops.

Agreed 100%!!!! When I was Constable I spent countless hours of my own time cruising the town looking for these scum bags.  I still do pay close attention to anyone I see that looks out of place!!   
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Chris Santee on November 15, 2011, 06:52:19 PM
STATE OF VERMONT DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
VERMONT STATE POLICE PRESS RELEASE
Update on Home Invasion in Rutland Town
Sgt. Chris Barber, Rutland Barracks, 802-773-9101

Rutland Town, VT – 11/15/11 – On November 15 at approximately 10AM, troopers out of the Rutland Barracks responded to a possible home invasion on Quarterline Road in Rutland Town. Upon arrival it was determined that a white male wearing a blue hooded sweatshirt made entry into the residence through a bedroom window. The homeowner, Patricia Billings, age 49 of Rutland Town, was home at the time of the incident. Billings used a firearm to ward off the would-be suspect. Three shots were fired at the male suspect; it is unknown if the subject was injured as a result. The homeowner was uninjured during the home invasion.

A small red vehicle was seen fleeing the area at the time of the incident.

“We encourage members of the community to remain vigilant and take precautions to deter criminal activity,” said Lt. Chuck Cacciatore Rutland Barracks Station Commander. “In the event you believe your home is being burglarized, please call 911 immediately. Taking the law into your own hands may cause more harm than good.”

Keep your home safe and remember to:

·   Never open doors to strangers.

·   Secure your home with high–security locks and quality doors and window hardware.

·   Consider a home security system and even a dog.

·   Have an action plan for your family in case intruders enter.

Anyone with information regarding this incident is asked to contact Sgt. Chris Barber at the State Police Barracks in Rutland at 802-773-9101.

 

Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Mummy on November 16, 2011, 12:06:10 AM
OMG ....

Have an action plan in the event of an intruder!  Are they saying for the home owner to RUN or hide in their own home?  Shoot them and my back up plan is to continue shooting until I run out of bullets if they are in my house -  that is my plan.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Thor on November 16, 2011, 06:16:25 AM
“We encourage members of the community to remain vigilant and take precautions to deter criminal activity,” said Lt. Chuck Cacciatore Rutland Barracks Station Commander. “In the event you believe your home is being burglarized, please call 911 immediately. Taking the law into your own hands may cause more harm than good.”

While I completely support what the Lt has to say..... we must remember, this is the advice/input from the people who are minutes away when seconds count.

Mummy,

     Be advised, you have a pretty good plan, but as Vermont does not currently have the Castle Doctrine, my recommendation would be shoot until you have eliminated the threat. Then search for new targets/threats. But if you empty a magazine and then reload and start shooting again, you are setting yourself up for the infamous civil suit that Loctavious and I were discussing earlier in the thread. Additionally, make sure you have the gun put away, when "Johnny Law" shows up, so he doesn't enter, draw down on you, and further complicate things.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: LauriH on November 16, 2011, 08:34:32 AM
Here are a few things to consider before you empty that gun.  How far and where are all of those stray bullets going to go.  How close and where are your neighbor's houses.  Is there a possibility that a fellow family member, in that moment of panic and chaos, could get between you and the person you are attempting to make into swiss cheese.

Oh and by the way, if you do have plans to use a gun to defend yourself, please get yourself trained and practice your aim.  Emptying your gun and hoping for the best really should not be your first plan of action.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: NPM, LLC on November 16, 2011, 08:54:40 AM
I heard from Law Enforcement that the criminals are getting very smart/caulky.  They'll enter your home through your unlocked front door & grab whatever they can...so don't leave your purse/wallet/keys in eyesite near a window/door.  Also if you do happen to see them, they'll say, "oh, I knocked and thought I heard you say to come in".  Also heard that most are on foot scoping out the house w/ a plan of saying they need help (car broken down, need to use your phone, etc...) while a second is in a hidden car.  Bottom line, the criminals are lazy so don't give them an easy-in.  (I can't believe I'm going to say this, but if you do use your own vigilante methods, place a kitchen knife in their hand so you can say they threatened you...case closed...that also came from a cop.)
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Thor on November 16, 2011, 09:37:53 AM
In reference to LauriH's concerns and points:

      Absolutely valid point on becoming intimately familiar with all weapons systems that you may have in your home. It is the owners responsibility to make sure that he or she is fully trained and competent on all weapons types. Daylight training, low light and in the dark. Can you draw, point, shoot and know where your rounds are going? Can you index shoot in the dark? Can you illuminate down range in order to positively identify friend or foe? Can you fix a malfunction of your weapon system quickly enough to prevent a threat from closing the distance on you? Have you trained to the maximum distance you may encounter within your home during a home invasion. Have you ever thought about how you would move through your house if you thought someone had gained entry? If you train to the point of these issues becoming muscle memory, you should be good to go.

      With regards to sending a bunch of stray bullets somewhere other than the intended target. Yes this is a concern, but once again, I would submit, that if you train properly, you will not live by the motto of "just send a bunch of bullets down range". In this situation, remember.... "you cannot miss fast enough"!! You have to hit what your shooting at. And you may not want to "empty the mag" or the cylinder on a single target when there is always the chance of multiple intruders/threats. And frangible ammunition is now available to the general public. If you live in close proximity to your neighbors or have family members in different areas of the house, frangible ammo might be a consideration. It will hit the target and break apart, thereby limiting the possibility of over penetration through walls, doors, etc... and minimizing the potential for catastrophic results from a missed shot.

     With regards to the potential of a family member getting between you and the threat, you just need to have a plan. If there are shots fired in the house, everyone just stay where they are. Don't come and investigate until an all clear signal (generally a verbal command) is given. That way, if there are multiple intruders, the only movement you hear will either be the second scumbag fleeing or coming in your direction. Either way, if you have trained well enough and are prepared to "identify threats", you will be ready.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Loctavious on November 16, 2011, 09:56:30 AM
I lock my door when we're home... seen too many of them Damn CSI or other shows where there's a home invasion.... just freakin' lock your door people!   What can happen scarsme enough to take reasonable precautions such as locking the door BOTH when we're away and when we're home.

Security systems, in this day and age, don;t need to cost thousands..... a simple motion activated internet camera system - costs b/w $150-$300 - depending on what type of resolution you want.... when activated, you program it to call you and other numbers.... this accopmanied with motion detectors on windows and signs of what you got going on VIA wirelss phone connections are moderate to heavy deterrents.  - Not knowing what or what you don't have inside your home .... certainly helps them weigh risk better.  I'd also suggest drawing blinds in the living room or any room that has expensive equipment in it - again - if folks are casing when you're not there - if they don't see anything of value - they can't really assess the value of the risk.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on November 16, 2011, 10:25:34 AM
In reference to LauriH's concerns and points:

      Absolutely valid point on becoming intimately familiar with all weapons systems that you may have in your home. It is the owners responsibility to make sure that he or she is fully trained and competent on all weapons types. Daylight training, low light and in the dark. Can you draw, point, shoot and know where your rounds are going? Can you index shoot in the dark? Can you illuminate down range in order to positively identify friend or foe? Can you fix a malfunction of your weapon system quickly enough to prevent a threat from closing the distance on you? Have you trained to the maximum distance you may encounter within your home during a home invasion. Have you ever thought about how you would move through your house if you thought someone had gained entry? If you train to the point of these issues becoming muscle memory, you should be good to go.

      With regards to sending a bunch of stray bullets somewhere other than the intended target. Yes this is a concern, but once again, I would submit, that if you train properly, you will not live by the motto of "just send a bunch of bullets down range". In this situation, remember.... "you cannot miss fast enough"!! You have to hit what your shooting at. And you may not want to "empty the mag" or the cylinder on a single target when there is always the chance of multiple intruders/threats. And frangible ammunition is now available to the general public. If you live in close proximity to your neighbors or have family members in different areas of the house, frangible ammo might be a consideration. It will hit the target and break apart, thereby limiting the possibility of over penetration through walls, doors, etc... and minimizing the potential for catastrophic results from a missed shot.

     With regards to the potential of a family member getting between you and the threat, you just need to have a plan. If there are shots fired in the house, everyone just stay where they are. Don't come and investigate until an all clear signal (generally a verbal command) is given. That way, if there are multiple intruders, the only movement you hear will either be the second scumbag fleeing or coming in your direction. Either way, if you have trained well enough and are prepared to "identify threats", you will be ready.

Amen Brother!! You should teach a class!!

Very important to shoot to eliminate the threat only and not go crazy expending all your ammo.  2 things to remember are 1. like Thor stated, you don't know how many threats there are, if you unload on the first one you see, you could easily become a victim of a now pissed off second burglar.  They are working together so it is safe to say you just killed his friend,  you wouldn't be happy either.  2nd thing is if it for some reason goes to court and you are put on the stand, you are going to have to explain to a jury the amount of force you used and why.  It's a lot easier to articulate to your peers that you felt your life was in danger(very important), so you elimated the threat with 2 shots center mass(if you can say as I was trained to do, even better) rather then 15 lol.  
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Kathleen on November 16, 2011, 10:47:36 AM
I've been reading all this and am wondering WHEN did protecting your home and family on your property become Vigilanteism. In my mind vigilanteism is when you go out with the intend to hunt someone down and and impose your own justice, not drawing a gun on your own property to protect.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Stand Alone Defense on November 16, 2011, 11:49:35 AM
Good Point.................The times we live in I suppose. Today it almost seems that criminals have more rights than us law abiding citizens do(Great Movie and fits the discusion lol).
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Chris Santee on November 16, 2011, 11:50:59 AM
The very first post mentioned heading out on the roads in search of bad guys
(or something close to that).

If you have been burglarized, check e-bay and craigslist for your stuff.
If you find it, call Vermont State Police at 524-5993.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Thor on November 16, 2011, 11:57:30 AM
The "vigilantism" actually came up in the orignial post. But, be advised, it can be construed as "vigilantism", even when you are protecting ones own family, home, property according to the true definition. Which is definitely a concern. Especially when we have local law enforcement telling us that we should contact 911 and let the authorities handle it, and not take the law into our own hands. I believe that all law enforcement personnel, have that as an automated response or advice, not that they all believe it.

Until the politicians here in Vermont, decide that the Castle Doctrine is a justified and necessary bill, due to the fact that there are limited law enforcement personnel to truly police the entire state, and there are areas (Fairfax) that have limited (might I say no coverage except for revenue generating speed traps). The Castle Doctrine protects one from prosecution, criminal or civil, should they use deadly force in the protection of their family, home and property. If you are carrying concealed and someone tries to carjack you, you are authorized the use of deadly force. Your car is your property. More so, if your family is in their with you. If you are on the street and someone decides to try to rob you, you can defend yourself with the use of deadly force. And quite obviously, if someone enters your home illegally, you are again authorized the use of deadly force. In a previous thread, I mentioned that there were certain criteria that need to be met to justify deadly force. To keep it simple, they are ability, opportunity and manifiest intent. If all three criteria are met, go ahead and double tap the scumbag, and be prepared to double tap him or her again, if necessary. But using reasonable and proportionate force, you should not empty the magazine into them, or reload and empty a second into them. Simply shoot to eliminate the threat and then search for new threats and be prepared to eliminate them as necessary. But it is very important that ultimately Vermont recognize the need for the Castle Doctrine and get it passed by the state legislature.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Chris Santee on November 16, 2011, 12:34:21 PM
STATE OF VERMONT DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
VERMONT STATE POLICE PRESS RELEASE

INCIDENT:Attempted Larceny
CASE #:11B203714
TROOPER: C.R.Field                                         STATION: Derby       
CONTACT#:334-881

DATE/TIME:11/14/11 1432 hours
LOCATION:Vte. Rte. 14/100 intersection, Newport Center
VIOLATION:Attempted Larceny

ACCUSED: Wayne Norway (43)Shirley Bobar (64)                     
CITY, STATE OF RESIDENCE:Morrisville,Vt.

VICTIM: Charles Drown Sr.                                                             
AGE:71
CITY, STATE OF RESIDENCE:Coventry ,Vt.

On 11/14/11 at 1432 hours myself and Cpl. Paul Mosher responded to

Vt.Rte 100 in Newport Center,Vt.to the property of Charles Drown Sr. (8/19/40).

Drown called 911 to advise he was coming home from deer camp and saw a black

Ford pickup backed up into his barn. Drown stated he confronted the subjects who

had loaded scrap into the back of their truck. He made the subjects identified

as Wayne Norway and Shirley Bobar unload the truck. Drowns blocked the vehicle

in until we arrived on scene. Bobar and Shirley admitted to the attempted

larceny and were cited accordingly with a court date of 12/13/11.

Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Thor on November 16, 2011, 02:33:10 PM
Josh,

     I am completely willing to assist our local community in any training they might want/need. Gotta find a time/place to do this if anyone is interested and keep it small for safety's sake. Way easier for me to keep eyes on a small class. My work schedule is quite hectic, but if we have folks who are worried about their safety and their ability to safely protect their families, home and property, I will assist in anyway I can. The way things are going nowadays, I don't envision it being too long before everyone recognizes the need to be self reliant in all facets of life. Additionally, I would add, anyone who might be interested, would have to be "vetted", so we are not disclosing methods we want to use against the "bad guys". OPSEC, OPSEC, OPSEC....
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Loctavious on November 16, 2011, 02:59:42 PM
i think the obstacle Thor, to easily getting the Castle Doctrine passed is how some folsk might interpret and abuse it... as always.  There's always a select few idiots or overly aggressive folk who take things way beyond the intended interpretation or purpose.

Folks knowing they can claim defense, when really they're feeling like capping a scumbag to provide a service to society would be such a case.

But really would the good outweigh the bad.... for a while it would... until someone claims thei'e troubled child ( who they're wholly responsbile for their troubledness) was shot and killed due to the doctrine and thus why it's too much and too over the top.

I'm on the fence here - as i would not want to be questioned when i defended my family when a scumbag tried to invade my home.... who knows what their intentions are and what having a gun and using it would've prevented ( assault, theft, abuse.... theft of items used to kill or abuse or maim others.....)
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Thor on November 16, 2011, 03:35:07 PM
Loctavious,

     The Castle Doctrine can only protect someone if they have used it accordingly. If you "abuse" it, you can be found liable for criminal and civil charges. Additionally, most folks who carry concealed, only do so in the event they encounter a situation that is a direct threat to them or them and their family. Most law abiding citizens would "retreat" from situations that they are not directly involved with or do not pose a direct threat to themselves or their family. For instance, you are in a Maplefields, gathering your items and someone comes in and attempts to rob the place. You are armed, what do you do? Again, I revert simply to, the 3 simple rules.... ability, opportunity and manifest intent. The robber has a weapon, baseball bat, crowbar or firearm, (thus he meets the ability criteria). You and the robber are in the same place at the same time, (thus he meets the opportunity criteria). Now, does he meet the manifest intent criteria if he is simply pointing the weapon or threatening the cashier? Yes he meets the manifest intent but only for the cashier. If he starts swinging the weapon around and looking at everyone in the store, in a threatening manner, (he has now met the manifest intent criteria for you). You can safely say that you were in fear for your life and those of the other folks in the store. As long as you were there legally, and he was not.... you can protect yourself.

     Would there be folks who would try to use this to "clean up the streets". Probably the Rambo's out there. But I would like to think that it would be very few and far between. And we cannot base the rules / laws of society off of the idiots. Like taking away the guns of law abiding citizens. Then only the bad guys would have the guns. If the bad guys do not know who might be carrying, or who might answer the knock on the door at night with a weapon in hand, or who might respond to a home invasion with a gun in hand, then it works in the deterent mode. If they know people are unarmed, whether out and about or at home, then they have the upper hand.

     In a nutshell, the chance of some knucklehead using the Castle Doctrine as a defense for using his weapon in an inapprpriate manner, should not inhibit the right to self defense for the average law abiding citizen.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: monte198 on November 16, 2011, 03:59:10 PM
There is a saying I take to heart that might work.  Tried by 12 or carried by six.  I can see the castle doctrine being abused but for those used properly it is an affirmative defense.
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Thor on November 16, 2011, 05:29:13 PM
Absolutely concur Monte,

     And if you have enough lime laying around, the police never even have to be called!! Hence you do not even have to worry about the 12!! (That's a joke people!!!)
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Mike Raburn on November 18, 2011, 03:24:31 AM
mike lives in alaska josh ?????????

Please elaborate, Special ED....
(Elaborate means explain further on your thought.. Though I'd take the hassle of you looking up elaborate in the dictionary) ((I KEED!))  (((NO really)))
Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Chris Santee on November 18, 2011, 09:38:50 AM
CITY, STATE OF RESIDENCE: Bristol, VT
SUMMARY OF INCIDENT: Vermont State Police are investigating an attempted
Burglary at the victim's residence. Unknown individuals attempted to force entry
through the victim's garage door. The garage door jamb was damaged as a result
of the attempt. The property damage estimate is $100. Anyone with information is
asked to contact VSP New Haven Barracks at 1-802-388-4919.


SUMMARY OF INCIDENT: New Haven Troopers responded to a home burglary
in the Town of Monkton.  It is suspected that burglars forcefully entered the
residence through a locked window.   
A large amount of family jewelry was stolen. 
State Police are looking
for any information regarding this incident. 
Please contact New Haven Trooper Kaitlyn Armstrong at 802-388-4919.



On November 14, 2011 Vermont State Police received a burglary complaint located on Brown Hill East in the Town of Starksboro.  A residence was broken into sometime between November 9 and November 14 2011.  Anybody with possible information is asked to contact the New Haven State Police Barracks at (802) 388-4919.



Summary of Incident:
The Vermont State Police responded to a residence in Hinesburg for a report of a burglary of a gun safe.  During the investigation it was learned the suspect(s) removed a large gun safe with several guns inside using the victim’s truck that was locked in the garage.  The safe was located in a nearby town.  The safe had been cut open and the guns were removed.  The truck is a 1999 red Dodge Ram with a silver stripe and license plate XKVATE.  Jewelry was also taken.  The Vermont State Police are requesting anyone with information about the location of the missing guns, truck or jewelry please call the Williston Barracks at (802)878-7111.



it's all around us.............

but sometimes there's good news.......

SUMMARY OF INCIDENT: On November 14, 2011 the Vermont State Police made two arrests in connection with a West Fairlee home burglary which was reported in late July.  After several months of investigation, Logan Wheeler was arrested for the daytime burglary in which several items, including a shotgun, were stolen from a residence in West Fairlee.  Tasha Gero was also arrested for Aiding in Commission of a Felony for the same event.  Gero is scheduled to appear in Orange County Superior Court on December 21, 2011 and Wheeler is scheduled to appear in Orange County Superior Court on December 28, 2011.  Wheeler is currently serving a prison sentence at the correctional facility in Springfield, VT for a separate offense.

Title: Re: Vigilanteism? Some locals are sick of the crime
Post by: Chris Santee on November 18, 2011, 02:26:52 PM
CITY, STATE OF RESIDENCE: Fayston, VT
SUMMARY OF INCIDENT:   
Anderson reported that she saw a strange vehicle driving up and down her road, ultimately parking in the vicinity of her residence for several minutes. She did not think anything of it at that time.  At about 0155 hrs, she heard scratching at her living room window.  Shortly thereafter, two males carrying what was described as a shotgun entered her front door, which was unlocked.  She screamed and the suspects fled.  The vehicle was described as a smaller, dark 2-door with stereo that had a “blue glow” to it.  Troopers searched the area and were unable to locate any matching vehicles.

Anyone with information is asked to contact Sgt. Ray LeBlanc at the State Police barracks in Middlesex at 229-9191, or to call the Central Vermont Crime Stoppers at 800-529-9998.

Residents are reminded that doors to homes and vehicles should be kept locked, and suspicious persons/vehicles should be reported to the police.