Henry Raymond
Fairfax News => Political Issues/Comments => Topic started by: Chris Santee on January 16, 2013, 10:51:56 AM
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1 S.32
2 Introduced by Senator Baruth
3 Referred to Committee on
4 Date:
5 Subject: Crimes; weapons; possession of semiautomatic assault weapons and
6 large capacity ammunition feeding devices
7 Statement of purpose: This bill proposes to prohibit the manufacture,
8 possession, or transfer of semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity
9 ammunition feeding devices; and to make it a crime for a person to negligently
10 leave a firearm accessible to a child.
11 An act relating to semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity
12 ammunition feeding devices
13 It is hereby enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Vermont:
14 Sec. 1. 13 V.S.A. § 4017 is added to read
15 § 4017. SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS
16 (a) A person shall not manufacture, possess, or transfer a semiautomatic
17 assault weapon.
18 (b) A person who violates this section shall be imprisoned for not more
19 than one year or fined not more than $500.00, or both.
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(c) This section shall not apply to the possession 1 or transfer of any
2 semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed on the effective
3 date of this act.
4 (d) This section shall not apply to:
5 (1) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms,
6 specified in subdivision (f)(5) of this section, as these firearms were
7 manufactured on the effective date of this act;
8 (2) any firearm that:
9 (A) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
10 (B) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or
11 (C) is an antique firearm;
12 (3) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine
13 that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; or
14 (4) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds
15 of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.
16 (e) This section shall not apply to a semiautomatic assault weapon:
17 (1) manufactured for, transferred to, or possessed by the United States or
18 a department or agency of the United States, or any state or a department,
19 agency, or political subdivision of a state;
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(2) transferred to or possessed by a state or 1 federal law enforcement
2 officer for legitimate law enforcement purposes, whether the officer is on or
3 off duty;
4 (3) transferred to a licensee under Title I of the Atomic Energy Act of
5 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical
6 protection system and security organization required by federal law, or
7 possessed by an employee or contractor of such a licensee on-site for these
8 purposes, or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or
9 transportation of nuclear materials;
10 (4) possessed by an individual who is retired from service with a law
11 enforcement agency after having been transferred to the individual by the
12 agency upon his or her retirement, provided that the individual is not otherwise
13 prohibited from receiving ammunition; or
14 (5) manufactured, transferred, or possessed by a licensed manufacturer
15 or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized
16 by the U.S. Attorney General.
17 (f)(1) As used in this section, “semiautomatic assault weapon” means:
18 (A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any
19 caliber, known as:
20 (i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat
21 Kalashnikovs (all models);
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(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military 1 Industries UZI and Galil;
2 (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
3 (iv) Colt AR-15;
4 (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
5 (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
6 (vii) Steyr AUG;
7 (viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9, and TEC-22; or
8 (ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street
9 Sweeper and Striker 12.
10 (B) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable
11 magazine and has at least two of the following features:
12 (i) a folding or telescoping stock;
13 (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
14 the weapon;
15 (iii) a bayonet mount;
16 (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to
17 accommodate a flash suppressor; or
18 (v) a grenade launcher.
19 (C) A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable
20 magazine and has at least two of the following features:
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(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches 1 to the pistol outside the
2 pistol grip;
3 (ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash
4 suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
5 (iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely
6 encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the
7 nontrigger hand without being burned;
8 (iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol
9 is unloaded; or
10 (v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.
11 (D) A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following
12 features:
13 (i) a folding or telescoping stock;
14 (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
15 the weapon;
16 (iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds; or
17 (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.
18 (2)(A) “Semiautomatic assault weapon” shall not mean any of the
19 following: Centerfire Rifles—Autoloaders—Browning BAR Mark II Safari
20 Semi-Auto Rifle; Browning BAR Mark II Safari Magnum Rifle; Browning
21 High-Power Rifle; Heckler & Koch Model 300 Rifle; Iver Johnson M-1
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Carbine; Iver Johnson 50th Anniversary M-1 Carbine; 1 Marlin Model 9 Camp
2 Carbine; Marlin Model 45 Carbine; Remington Nylon 66 Auto-Loading Rifle;
3 Remington Model 7400 Auto Rifle; Remington Model 7400 Rifle; Remington
4 Model 7400 Special Purpose Auto Rifle; Ruger Mini-14 Autoloading Rifle
5 (without folding stock); Ruger Mini Thirty Rifle; Browning Model 81 BLR
6 Lever-Action Rifle; Browning Model 81 Long Action BLR; Browning Model
7 1886 Lever-Action Carbine; Browning Model 1886 High Grade Carbine;
8 Cimarron 1860 Henry Replica; Cimarron 1866 Winchester Replicas; Cimarron
9 1873 Short Rifle; Cimarron 1873 Sporting Rifle; Cimarron 1873 30″ Express
10 Rifle; Dixie Engraved 1873 Rifle; E.M.F. 1866 Yellowboy Lever Actions;
11 E.M.F. 1860 Henry Rifle; E.M.F. Model 73 Lever-Action Rifle; Marlin Model
12 336CS Lever-Action Carbine; Marlin Model 30AS Lever-Action Carbine;
13 Marlin Model 444SS Lever-Action Sporter; Marlin Model 1894S
14 Lever-Action Carbine; Marlin Model 1894CS Carbine; Marlin Model 1894CL
15 Classic; Marlin Model 1895SS Lever-Action Rifle; Mitchell 1858 Henry
16 Replica; Mitchell 1866 Winchester Replica; Mitchell 1873 Winchester
17 Replica; Navy Arms Military Henry Rifle; Navy Arms Henry Trapper; Navy
18 Arms Iron Frame Henry; Navy Arms Henry Carbine; Navy Arms 1866
19 Yellowboy Rifle; Navy Arms 1873 Winchester-Style Rifle; Navy Arms 1873
20 Sporting Rifle; Remington 7600 Slide Action; Remington Model 7600 Special
21 Purpose Slide Action; Rossi M92 SRC Saddle-Ring Carbine; Rossi M92 SRS
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Short Carbine; Savage 99C Lever-Action Rifle; 1 Uberti Henry Rifle; Uberti
2 1866 Sporting Rifle; Uberti 1873 Sporting Rifle; Winchester Model 94 Side
3 Eject Lever-Action Rifle; Winchester Model 94 Trapper Side Eject;
4 Winchester Model 94 Big Bore Side Eject; Winchester Model 94 Ranger Side
5 Eject Lever-Action Rifle; Winchester Model 94 Wrangler Side Eject; Alpine
6 Bolt-Action Rifle; A-Square Caesar Bolt-Action Rifle; A-Square Hannibal
7 Bolt-Action Rifle; Anschutz 1700D Classic Rifles; Anschutz 1700D Custom
8 Rifles; Anschutz 1700D Bavarian Bolt-Action Rifle; Anschutz 1733D
9 Mannlicher Rifle; Barret Model 90 Bolt-Action Rifle; Beeman/HW60J
10 Bolt-Action Rifle; Blaser R84 Bolt-Action Rifle; BRNO 537 Sporter
11 Bolt-Action Rifle; BRNO ZKB 527 Fox Bolt-Action Rifle; BRNO ZKK 600,
12 601, 602 Bolt-Action Rifles; Browning A-Bolt Rifle; Browning A-Bolt
13 Stainless Stalker; Browning A-Bolt Left Hand; Browning A-Bolt Short Action;
14 Browning Euro-Bolt Rifle; Browning A-Bolt Gold Medallion; Browning
15 A-Bolt Micro Medallion; Century Centurion 14 Sporter; Century Enfield
16 Sporter #4; Century Swedish Sporter #38; Century Mauser 98 Sporter; Cooper
17 Model 38 Centerfire Sporter; Dakota 22 Sporter Bolt-Action Rifle; Dakota 76
18 Classic Bolt-Action Rifle; Dakota 76 Short Action Rifles; Dakota 76 Safari
19 Bolt-Action Rifle; Dakota 416 Rigby African; E.A.A./Sabatti Rover 870
20 Bolt-Action Rifle; Auguste Francotte Bolt-Action Rifles; Carl Gustaf 2000
21 Bolt-Action Rifle; Heym Magnum Express Series Rifle; Howa Lightning
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Bolt-Action Rifle; Howa Realtree Camo Rifle; Interarms 1 Mark X Viscount
2 Bolt-Action Rifle; Interarms Mini-Mark X Rifle; Interarms Mark X Whitworth
3 Bolt-Action Rifle; Interarms Whitworth Express Rifle; Iver Johnson Model
4 5100A1 Long-Range Rifle; KDF K15 American Bolt-Action Rifle; Krico
5 Model 600 Bolt-Action Rifle; Krico Model 700 Bolt-Action Rifles; Mauser
6 Model 66 Bolt-Action Rifle; Mauser Model 99 Bolt-Action Rifle; McMillan
7 Signature Classic Sporter; McMillan Signature Super Varminter; McMillan
8 Signature Alaskan; McMillan Signature Titanium Mountain Rifle; McMillan
9 Classic Stainless Sporter; McMillan Talon Safari Rifle; McMillan Talon
10 Sporter Rifle; Midland 1500S Survivor Rifle; Navy Arms TU-33/40 Carbine;
11 Parker-Hale Model 81 Classic Rifle; Parker-Hale Model 81 Classic African
12 Rifle; Parker-Hale Model 1000 Rifle; Parker-Hale Model 1100M African
13 Magnum; Parker-Hale Model 1100 Lightweight Rifle; Parker-Hale Model
14 1200 Super Rifle; Parker-Hale Model 1200 Super Clip Rifle; Parker-Hale
15 Model 1300C Scout Rifle; Parker-Hale Model 2100 Midland Rifle;
16 Parker-Hale Model 2700 Lightweight Rifle; Parker-Hale Model 2800 Midland
17 Rifle; Remington Model Seven Bolt-Action Rifle; Remington Model Seven
18 Youth Rifle; Remington Model Seven Custom KS; Remington Model Seven
19 Custom MS Rifle; Remington 700 ADL Bolt-Action Rifle; Remington 700
20 BDL Bolt-Action Rifle; Remington 700 BDL Varmint Special; Remington 700
21 BDL European Bolt-Action Rifle; Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic Rifle;
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Remington 700 BDL SS Rifle; Remington 700 Stainless 1 Synthetic Rifle;
2 Remington 700 MTRSS Rifle; Remington 700 BDL Left Hand; Remington
3 700 Camo Synthetic Rifle; Remington 700 Safari; Remington 700 Mountain
4 Rifle; Remington 700 Custom KS Mountain Rifle; Remington 700 Classic
5 Rifle; Ruger M77 Mark II Rifle; Ruger M77 Mark II Magnum Rifle; Ruger
6 M77RL Ultra Light; Ruger M77 Mark II All-Weather Stainless Rifle; Ruger
7 M77 RSI International Carbine; Ruger M77 Mark II Express Rifle; Ruger
8 M77VT Target Rifle; Sako Hunter Rifle; Sako FiberClass Sporter; Sako Safari
9 Grade Bolt Action; Sako Hunter Left-Hand Rifle; Sako Classic Bolt Action;
10 Sako Hunter LS Rifle; Sako Deluxe Lightweight; Sako Super Deluxe Sporter;
11 Sako Mannlicher-Style Carbine; Sako Varmint Heavy Barrel; Sako TRG-S
12 Bolt-Action Rifle; Sauer 90 Bolt-Action Rifle; Savage 110G Bolt-Action
13 Rifle; Savage 110CY Youth/Ladies Rifle; Savage 110WLE One of One
14 Thousand Limited Edition Rifle; Savage 110GXP3 Bolt-Action Rifle; Savage
15 110F Bolt-Action Rifle; Savage 110FXP3 Bolt-Action Rifle; Savage 110GV
16 Varmint Rifle; Savage 112FV Varmint Rifle; Savage Model 112FVS Varmint
17 Rifle; Savage Model 112BV Heavy Barrel Varmint Rifle; Savage 116FSS
18 Bolt-Action Rifle; Savage Model 116FSK Kodiak Rifle; Savage 110FP Police
19 Rifle; Steyr-Mannlicher Sporter Models SL, L, M, S, S/T; Steyr-Mannlicher
20 Luxus Model L, M, S; Steyr-Mannlicher Model M Professional Rifle; Tikka
21 Bolt-Action Rifle; Tikka Premium Grade Rifles; Tikka Varmint/Continental
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Rifle; Tikka Whitetail/Battue Rifle; Ultra Light 1 Arms Model 20 Rifle; Ultra
2 Light Arms Model 28, Model 40 Rifles; Voere VEC 91 Lightning Bolt-Action
3 Rifle; Voere Model 2165 Bolt-Action Rifle; Voere Model 2155, 2150
4 Bolt-Action Rifles; Weatherby Mark V Deluxe Bolt-Action Rifle; Weatherby
5 Lasermark V Rifle; Weatherby Mark V Crown Custom Rifles; Weatherby
6 Mark V Sporter Rifle; Weatherby Mark V Safari Grade Custom Rifles;
7 Weatherby Weathermark Rifle; Weatherby Weathermark Alaskan Rifle;
8 Weatherby Classicmark No.
9 (B) The fact that a firearm is not listed in subdivision (f)(2)(A) of this
10 section shall not be construed to mean that this section applies to that firearm.
11 Sec. 2. 13 V.S.A. § 4018 is added to read
12 § 4018. LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES
13 (a) A person shall not manufacture, possess, or transfer a large capacity
14 ammunition feeding device.
15 (b) A person who violates this section shall be imprisoned for not more
16 than one year or fined not more than $500.00, or both.
17 (c) This section shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any large
18 capacity ammunition feeding device otherwise lawfully possessed on or before
19 the effective date of this act.
20 (d) This section shall not apply to any large capacity ammunition feeding
21 device:
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(1) manufactured for, transferred to, or possessed 1 by the United States or
2 a department or agency of the United States, or any state or a department,
3 agency, or political subdivision of a state;
4 (2) transferred to or possessed by a state or federal law enforcement
5 officer for legitimate law enforcement purposes, whether the officer is on or
6 off duty;
7 (3) transferred to a licensee under Title I of the Atomic Energy Act of
8 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical
9 protection system and security organization required by federal law, or
10 possessed by an employee or contractor of such a licensee on-site for these
11 purposes, or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or
12 transportation of nuclear materials;
13 (4) possessed by an individual who is retired from service with a law
14 enforcement agency after having been transferred to the individual by the
15 agency upon his or her retirement, provided that the individual is not otherwise
16 prohibited from receiving ammunition; or
17 (5) manufactured, transferred, or possessed by a licensed manufacturer
18 or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized
19 by the U.S. Attorney General.
20 (e) As used in this section, “large capacity ammunition feeding device”
21 mean a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device manufactured after
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the date of enactment of the Assault Weapons Ban 1 Renewal Act of 2007 that
2 has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more
3 than 10 rounds of ammunition, provided that “large capacity ammunition
4 feeding device” shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept,
5 and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.
6 Sec. 3. 13 V.S.A. § 4019 is added to read:
7 § 4019. NEGLIGENT STORAGE OF A FIREARM
8 (a) As used in this section:
9 (1) “Child”means a person under 18 years of age.
10 (2) “Firearm” means any weapon, whether loaded or unloaded, that will
11 expel a projectile by the action of an explosive and includes any weapon
12 commonly referred to as a pistol, revolver, rifle, gun, machine gun, or shotgun.
13 (3) “Locking device” means a device that is designed to prevent a
14 firearm from functioning and that, when applied to a firearm, renders the
15 firearm inoperable.
16 (b) A person is guilty of negligent storage of a firearm in the first degree if:
17 (1) the person keeps a loaded firearm within any premises that are under
18 the person’s custody or control;
19 (2) the person knows or reasonably should know that a child is likely to
20 gain access to the firearm without the permission of the child’s parent or legal
21 guardian; and
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(3) a child obtains access to the firearm 1 and uses it to cause death or
2 serious bodily injury to any person.
3 (c) A person is guilty of negligent storage of a firearm in the second
4 degree if:
5 (1) the person keeps a loaded firearm within any premises that are under
6 the person’s custody or control;
7 (2) the person knows or reasonably should know that a child is likely to
8 gain access to the firearm without the permission of the child’s parent or legal
9 guardian; and
10 (3) a child obtains access to the firearm and discharges it or uses it in the
11 commission of a crime or uses it to cause injury to any person.
12 (d) This section shall not apply if:
13 (1) the child obtains the firearm as a result of an illegal entry into any
14 premises by any person;
15 (2) the firearm is kept in a locked container or in a location that a
16 reasonable person would believe to be secure;
17 (3) the firearm is carried on the person or within such close proximity to
18 the person that it can readily be retrieved and used as if carried on the person;
19 (4) the firearm is locked with a locking device that renders the firearm
20 inoperable;
21 (5) The person from whom the child obtains the firearm is a law
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enforcement officer or a member of the U.S. Armed 1 Forces or National Guard
2 engaged in the performance of the person’s official duties;
3 (6) the child obtains or discharges the firearm during the course of a
4 lawful act of self-defense or defense of another person; or
5 (7) a reasonable person would not expect a child to be present on the
6 premises where the firearm was obtained.
7 (e) A person who:
8 (1) violates subsection (b) of this section shall be imprisoned not more
9 than three years or fined not more than $10,000.00, or both.
10 (2) violates subsection (c) of this section shall be imprisoned not more
11 than one year or fined not more than $1,000.00, or both.
12 (f) If a violation of this section leads to the accidental shooting of a child of
13 the person who committed the violation:
14 (1) The state’s attorney shall consider the impact of the child’s injury or
15 death on the person when deciding whether to file charges under this section.
16 (2) No prosecution shall be brought unless the person behaved in a
17 grossly negligent manner or unless similarly egregious circumstances exist.
18 (3) The person shall not be arrested for violating this section until:
19 (A) at least seven days after the date upon which the accidental
20 shooting occurred; and
21 (B) after a law enforcement officer considers the nature and extent of
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the child’s injuries, including whether the child is in critical 1 medical condition.
2 (g) Nothing in this section may be construed to affect any existing right to
3 purchase and own firearms or to provide authority to any state or local agency
4 to infringe upon the privacy of any family, home, or business except by lawful
5 warrant, including rights under Chapter I, Articles 9 and 16 and Chapter II,
6 § 59 of the Constitution of the State of Vermont.
7 Sec. 4. 13 V.S.A. § 4006 is amended to read:
8 § 4006. RECORD OF FIREARM SALES; WARNING
9 (a) All pawnbrokers and retail merchants dealing in firearms shall keep a
10 record book in which they shall record the sale by them of all revolvers and
11 pistols, and the purchase by them of all secondhand revolvers and pistols.
12 Such record shall include the date of the transaction, the marks of identification
13 of the firearm, including the manufacturer’s name, the caliber, model, and
14 manufacturer’s number of the firearm, the name, address, birthplace,
15 occupation, age, height, weight, and color of eyes and hair of the purchaser or
16 seller. Such purchaser or seller shall sign his or her name to the record, and the
17 pawnbroker or merchant shall preserve such record book for six years after the
18 date of last entry and shall permit all enforcement officers to inspect the same
19 at all reasonable times. A person, partnership, or corporation who violates a
20 provision of this section shall be fined not more than $100.00.
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(b) All pawnbrokers and retail merchants 1 dealing in firearms shall:
2 (1) conspicuously post at each purchase counter, in bold type not less
3 than one inch in height, the following warning: TO PREVENT
4 UNAUTHORIZED USE OR MISUSE BY CHILDREN, VERMONT LAW
5 REQUIRES THIS FIREARM TO BE STORED SO THAT IT IS SECURE
6 AND INACCESSIBLE TO CHILDREN; and
7 (2) provide a written copy of the warning described in subdivision (1) of
8 this subsection to every person who purchases a firearm.
9 Sec. 5. EFFECTIVE DATE
10 This act shall take effect on July 1, 2013.
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Can someone please dumb this down for me. Is this article trying to say the state of vermont is trying to ban all firearms that are operated with a bolt, pump, lever, or slide action except the ones they listed? And also trying to ban mags for pistols over 10 rounds, and over 5 rounds for other firearms?
I'm apparently not bright enough to understand the government lingo, and I just want to make sure I know the acts before I sound off
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Shadylane - I browsed quickly thru it as you had my attention about the bolt and pump action rifles. It appears that they shall not apply to those types of guns. These are not rapid fire types of guns.
This section shall not apply to:
5 (1) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms,
6 specified in subdivision (f)(5) of this section, as these firearms were
7 manufactured on the effective date of this act;
8 (2) any firearm that:
9 (A) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
10 (B) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or
11 (C) is an antique firearm;
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Ryan,
Basically pertains to AR15 style and some other Semi Auto weapons and you are correct with the magazine capacities. It's crap and I suggest people call their local state senators and tell them how we feel before they vote on it!!
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And while they are talking to the Sgt. at Arms to let the senators know their opinion on this, please also let them know childcare workers in Vt do NOT need a union!! Parents, friends any & everyone, please make the call today 802-828-2228 & tell them NO UNION FOR CHILDCARE WORKERS!!!! thankyou
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toll free at 800-322-5616
phone lines are busy today, Franklin County Senators are Don Collins and Norm McAllister
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Josh,
Does the high capacity clips pertain to all firearms? Correct me if I'm wrong again but in reading this does it say if your a have a pistol with a mag that holds more then 10 rounds you could go to jail for up to a year and/or be fined $500? So I'd have to get new 10 round clips for my beretta! Not gonna happen
Making it harder for Americans to own firearms, and making it so the honest can only have mags that hold so much ammo is not going to solve anything. We do NOT have a gun problem in America, we have a society problem!
I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous when as a nation are we going to stand up and say no more? Our government continues to pick away at the rights of the honest americans all while they passively let the criminals get away with murder. Tax the hard working americans to the point they can hardly breath, but then allow millions of americans and non-americans live here while not trying to pull their weight in making this country a better place to live.
Tell you what I will do, I'll continue to go to work every day, pay my taxes, and pull my weight because thats how I was brought up. I'll try my best to help out others in my community and try to make this place a better place to live because thats how I was raised. But no matter what laws are put in place I'll be keeping my beretta with both 17 round clips loaded in my night stand to protect myself and my family because again thats how I was raised! I wont stand by and let my government make me a victim of the society and culture we have created.
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Shadylane,
This is nothing more than a knee jerk reaction by unknowing politicians. They think they can legislate problems and crime away, by laying more restrictions, regulations and control over the law abiding citizens. They absolutely don't get the fact that the bad guys don't care about laws and actually prefer to know that there is a better chance of them succeding in their evil endeavors, by having an unarmed populace. Progressive philosophy as stated by Rahm Emanuel (Obamas' former Chief of Staff).... never let a crisis go to waste, but you gotta act fast in order to take advantage of the emotions of the population.
If I remember correctly, they didn't try to ban weapons when it was the government shooting kids at Kent State. But I digress.....
Thor
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shady i say this whit the utmost respect for you but if it came right down to the nitty gritty i think you would cave as would most people
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With the utmost back to you Rod sitting around and caving and allowing the ones we vote in that are suppose to work for us, instead work their own agendas is the reason this country is in the kind of place it is.
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agreed 3plusk
This Wednesday, January 16th is our Lobby Day. Since the majority of us can't be at the statehouse in person, the hope is that we will all flood our senators with phone calls and emails. The phone call literally takes three minutes, tops, and all you are doing is leaving a message with the attendant. Emails can also be quick and easy. Also, the more people you can get to call, the better. I am asking all of my childcare parents to take three minutes during the day to call, and if you can get at least one parent to call, that is fabulous. The goal is to literally flood the senators with our opposition.
You can call the Sergeant at Arms office and leave a message for your Senator. That number is 802-828-2228. When you call, you can state "I'd like to leave a message for Senator(s) xxxxx." You will be asked your name and town (phone number?). The message you should leave is "I am a home childcare provider and oppose being unionized." That's it.
You can find your Senator, as well as their email here based on your county: http://leg.state.vt.us/lms/legdir/districts.asp?Body=S&Session=2014
If you would like to email your Senator, in addition to calling, below are some quick talking points you can choose from to copy and paste into an email:
Dear Senator,
I am unable to make it to the state house due to providing at-home child care. Please oppose the unionization of child care workers because…
· This bill is not about improving early childhood education. I, among 75 percent of those polled believe that unionization of childcare workers is not in the best interest of the children I provide for and their families, nor for my best interest.
· If the legislature moves forward and enacts a bill that will offer the opportunity to unionize, I lose my voice: as an independent provider and as a professional in the childcare community. I lose my freedom to represent myself and the interests of the children in my care. If we become united in a union, we as individuals fall and the ones who suffer the most will be the children we’re supposed to be looking out for.
· Unionizing childcare will not help to advance early childhood development, and providers will not reap the benefits that they’ve been promised without having to suffer much larger consequences. I’m against unionizing – for the children’s sake and my own.
· When it comes to unionizing childcare, the discussions have revolved around increased pay (for the provider), increased reimbursement rates (for the provider) and professional development and training (for the provider). Very seldom do we hear discussion about child development or improved early education. This bill does not take the best interests of the children into consideration.
· The union does not emphasizes the best interests of children. Education and growth benefits for children fall by the wayside in union discussions. I believe a union will create more regulation and demand on me and consume valuable time that would otherwise be spent on the development of children.
· As a small business owner I set my own rates that are fair and reasonable to my clients. Becoming an in-home childcare provider was a decision I made that has allowed me the flexibility of working within my schedule and the comfort of being my own boss. Unionization of childcare providers will remove the flexibility and eliminate those comforts; all while forcing me to pay for something I never wanted in the first place.
* Not to mention. where do they think the money is going to come from? They say that they will fight to qualify more parents by raising the subsidy guidlines and subsidy payments. This is another bill on the tax payers. It also sounds to me like socialist thinking. If you have kids, you will need the government to pay for your needs. Now, if they cant win against the state budget makers. Guess what, the added union costs will be put on the backs of the middle class hardworking parents that are straped with the cost of childcare already. We need voices so this does not happen.
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agreed
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I'm not in favor of automatic weapons for all private citizens regardless of mental capacity. There are plenty of non mentally ill persons I would not want having free run to purchase weapons. I think those who own weapons must always receive proper training and certification prior to owning any gun. I know that goes against the idea of a militia owning weapons to fight a government should the need arise, but even I should not be able to go out use a gun without showing proof of capacity. Other restrictions could come after that if needed such as mental capacity.
The school issue is so far beyond gun control and hits to common sense. If a shooter only had a handgun someone would have still been hurt and not ever teacher is capable of shooting someone even if they had a gun and training. Nor can anyone say that a guard would have been there to stop the issue. How about all doors being alarmed and if opened they sound. Have all visitor come to a holding area where they meet with someone on the other side of glass to say why they are there. How about parents lock up their guns and check to make sure they are there more often.
I'm a parent who has had their home robbed recently and still feel that I don't feel comfortable having a firearm in the home with small children. My parents had guns when I was young and there were no issues. Every person and situation is different. I agree this is a societal issue and a common sense issue. We don't need to tag our kids with GPS, take guns from hunters or recreational shooters, or blame anyone. We need to look at what went wrong and make people safe. Smaller clips and single shots kill fewer but still kill. Kids hide things from parents just like parents hide things from kids. Legislation against guns, games and the size of a gun won't stop crazy or ill people.
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First of all, the average citizen cannot purchase an automatic weapon without going through ATF and having a special license for such things. You have to have an ATF tax stamp to purchase such things as a short barrel rifle or a suppressor.
You have to have a Class III license in order to purchase an automatic weapon. Expensive and not easily attained.
The average citizen can purchase a semi automatic rifle, only after a NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System). If you have a clean record, you can make the purchase. The Feds are only allowed to keep the information on each purchase for 6 months, in order to avoid them being able to establish a gun registry. If you believe that, you have more faith in the Feds than I do. But the point is, only people who are legal to make a purchase are allowed to make the purchase. This is not how it works at gun shows or on a person to person sale. So perhaps having background checks mandatory at gun shows is an acceptable task. But anything above and beyond that is unacceptable. Limiting weapons because they look scary is ridiculous. Limiting the size of a magazine is ridiculous as well. Perhaps part of the answer lies in getting the idiot politicians educated. Chicago has the toughest gun laws in the country and last year, well over 500 people were killed there. And it wasn't from the law abiding citizens. New York also has some of the toughest gun laws in the country, and they had a conviceted felon get a gun and shoot two firefighters. Connecticut also has very strict gun laws and yet a crazy man was able to acquire the weapons for his assault at Sandy Hook. None of those weapons were acquired legally. Perhaps the Obama administration should focus on making a list of criminals and doing everythng in their power to keep them from getting weapons instead of focusing on the law abiding citizen who has jumped through the necessary hoops to make legal purchases. Maybe the answer there lies in the fact that this administration isn't exactly squeaky clean on weapons.
All this talk of gun control makes me think we need a very good man in charge of the whole thing; you know somebody who knows about weapons and can keep track of them, monitors sales, makes sure the guns aren't purchased by evildoers.... you know, someone like Eric Holder. He had a great plan of supplying weapons illegally to bad people so they could kill each other all the while being able to claim that it was the average citizen who was making the illegal purchases and transfers in what may have been an attempt to usurp the 2nd Amendment. But he was compromised by some whistleblowers and then the wheels came off the cart when a couple of the good guys (you know the type... the men who swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies; foreign and domestic) got killed by his weapons. How quickly people forget this criminal activity, perpetrated by the man who holds the highest office in the country in the law enforcement community. So using smoke and mirrors, this same criminal enterprise (the Obama administration) made everyone forget about Fast & Furious, and is now focusing on the law abiding citizens post the tragic Sandy Hook shootings.
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All good points. Let me just say...
I HATE THE MEDIA.
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Fast and Furious was such a mess as far as tracking and oversight. I can't see a better example of poor law enforcement work. Even with all the restrictions on direct purchase, it's obvious people can get or modify weapons that do the same damage. I'm not sure how to regulate something like this without holding the every seller responsible down the line.
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The media is nothing more than the propaganda arm of the left. They are so in with this administration, but it is understandable. These progressives have been infiltrating the entire system, of schools and universities, media, political system, ACLU.... just about everywhere for a very long time. And of course it is easy to get them to support the lefts' beliefs.... as they have the same ones.
We have the Constitution and the Bill of Rights for a reason. Some very smart patriots saw this coming a long time ago. This administration just plain hates the Constitution which is why he continually goes around it, and Congress. He is as anti 2nd Amendment as anyone I have ever seen. And now with his ObammyCare, is going to have doctors "telling" on patients and neighbors "telling" on neighbors, in order to attempt to prevent another shooting. What about Dr / client privilege?
So the question is... by who's standard is crazy or mentally impaired now defined? And to what level is mental impairment allowed to have a gun? What about those crazy neighbors who own guns and go shooting every weekend? Not crazy people to the people they shoot with at the range every weekend, but they sure are crazy to an anti-gun zealot. Who could possibly want to go shooting on their free time? That's crazy!!
The administration should focus on catching and prosecuting criminals. And work on keeping the weapons out of the criminals hands. It should be easy, as they themselves are or appear to be a criminal organization. They could start on the inside and work their way out.... Eric Holder.... no gun, Tim Giethner... no gun, Van Jones... no gun, and we could go on.
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Josh,
Does the high capacity clips pertain to all firearms? Correct me if I'm wrong again but in reading this does it say if your a have a pistol with a mag that holds more then 10 rounds you could go to jail for up to a year and/or be fined $500? So I'd have to get new 10 round clips for my beretta! Not gonna happen
Making it harder for Americans to own firearms, and making it so the honest can only have mags that hold so much ammo is not going to solve anything. We do NOT have a gun problem in America, we have a society problem!
I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous when as a nation are we going to stand up and say no more? Our government continues to pick away at the rights of the honest americans all while they passively let the criminals get away with murder. Tax the hard working americans to the point they can hardly breath, but then allow millions of americans and non-americans live here while not trying to pull their weight in making this country a better place to live.
Tell you what I will do, I'll continue to go to work every day, pay my taxes, and pull my weight because thats how I was brought up. I'll try my best to help out others in my community and try to make this place a better place to live because thats how I was raised. But no matter what laws are put in place I'll be keeping my beretta with both 17 round clips loaded in my night stand to protect myself and my family because again thats how I was raised! I wont stand by and let my government make me a victim of the society and culture we have created.
Ryan,
Your number one priority is keep yourself and your family safe!! If someone comes to take your 17 round Mags away you can call me man and I will stand beside you bro. 12 years ago I said these words.... I, Joshua Langelier, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I still take that oath very seriously!!!!
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Thor I agree with everything you say, you word it better than I do ;-)
I think it all comes down to two definitions. "Crazy" & "Assault Weapons" Like Thor said what’s crazy? Who’s making the final call on who is "crazy" or "mentally ill"? Like Thor said is it the individual that shoots every weekend and is well armed and a well practiced and experienced shooter therefore by nhibbards standard should be an individual that should have weapons? I shoot a decent amount but I guarantee there were some people that read my first couple posts and their first thought was "wow crazy gun guy". I disagree I think it’s crazy to not have a firearm in your house for protection. I shoot enough to be good so if that situation ever arose I would feel confident not scared. My wife and I lived on Suzie Wilson road when the Currier situation happened. We use to walk by their house in the evenings. Its a nice quiet peacefull neighborhood, and look what happened. That was the final straw for me, I already owned my pistol but I went out and bought a pistol for my wife too. She was hesitant to shoot it, it scared her. I taught her how to use it, and how to be very safe with it. She isn't scared anymore and is quite confident with it, and let me add she’s very good with it ;-) Listen there is evil all around us, and I believe you owe it to yourself and your family to be able to protect yourself and your family. Ever heard the phrase when danger is moments away law enforcement is minutes away? I'll leave it at that.
Other definition, "assault weapon". If they are trying to ban "assault weapons" they should be able to define it right? So what is an assault weapon? As Thor already posted the normal joe can't buy a full automatic firearm so that’s out of the question. Is it the pistol grips? I know a lot of turkey shotguns that are sold with pistol grips now. is it the firearms with a heat shield around the barrel? Is it the black firearms? Thor it the nail on the head, it’s the firearms that looks scary to the people that don't agree with firearms.
As for mandating smaller magazines. I'm sure some of you read about the woman in Georgia recently that shot an intruder that came into her home looking for her or her kids. She had a 5 shot revolver, shot all 5 times, hitting him 4 times (apparently she’s a decent shot). She only had a 5 shot revolver so this doesn't necessarily pertain to her situation, but for the sake of argument let’s say she had a firearm with a 5 shot magazine b/c Obama said that’s all she could have. So she shoots all 5 times severely injuring this intruder then whoops she just realizes there are actually 2 intruders not one. Now what? I bet she would have wished she had at least one more round! No body that wins a gun fight ever says "boy wish I didn't bring so much ammo". So I ask why put these kind of restrictions on law abiding citizens when criminals aren't going to play by the same rules? Do people actually believe by putting these restrictions out there it’s going to stop criminals from using them?
I'll say just one last thing then I'll get off my soap box. This is a free country let’s keep it that way. Full government control over everything is not a good thing and our founding fathers put certain things in place to try and protect us from just that . . . our government.
Couple quotes from a very smart man:
- When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty (Thomas Jefferson)
- The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. (Thomas Jefferson)
- My readings of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. (Thomas Jefferson)
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Shady,
As a career military guy and now a law enforcement guy, I have had the experiences of being in many gunfights. I am still here to write my opinions for two reasons.... 1) training, training, training. I used to tell my guys, that rehearsals are the things that save your life in a bad situation. So rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. Think of the worst case scenarios you could encounter in your home, in your car, in a restaurant, in a movie theater, in a shopping mall, etc.... and think about them and train to those scenarios. 2) I have never been accused of not bringing enough bullets to the fight. On one occasion, I carried 28, 30 round magazines into an operation. I didn't shoot them all, but I was damn sure I was not going to run out of rounds before I was able to get myself and my guys out of there. On previous posts in a previous thread here on Henry's website, I wrote down a few beliefs that we had in my unit.
1) Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. And don't worry about moving onto the next threat until the one you are dealing with is eliminated.
2) Bullets are cheap and life is worth everything. Keep shooting until the threat is completely eliminated.
3) Plan for the worst case scenario and hope for the best.
4) Protecting your teammates / family / innocent, defenseless people is the most admirable thing a person can do.
If protecting our families when in our homes or out in society, our children when they are in the schools or anywhere else is really important, then you have to have well trained people ready to respond when evil strikes. With that said, the good guys have to be on their game 100% of the time. Total situational awareness all of the time. Because the evil people only have to be right once. That is why the shooter in Aurora, Colorado picked the one theater of the 8 near his apartment that did not allow weapons in the theater. That is why the evil doers go to schools. Columbine, VA Tech, Sandy Hook, etc....
Had one person been carrying a weapon in Aurora, perhaps they could have mitigated the magnitude of the tragedy. It is still a tragedy if only one person had been killed, but if we could have prevented the other 11 from being killed, then we were at least somewhat successful. If an armed guard or armed teacher had been able to confront the Sandy Hook shooter, it still would have been a tragedy if anybody had been killed. But perhaps we would not have had to witness 26 deaths.
Outlawing semi auto rifles because of their look or appearance, and outlawing high capacity magazines because of the number of rounds is pure stupidity. These ideas are generated by individuals who have no true concept of the effect these laws will have on the bad guys. Which is absolutely NONE! They are playing on emotions of the populace, which is heinous in and of itself to further their agenda.
I am always willing to assist anyone around here who wants to become educated and trained in order to be better prepared to defend themselves, their families or any innocent folks who need help.
Okay, now I to, will get off my soapbox.
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Thor, agree with you on all levels and glad to have you near by!
Thanks for taking the time to explan everything so well. Can we send you to Montpelier/DC now :-)
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No MK.... I don't fit in well with the suits. Plus, I would never look someone in the eye and lie to them like most of the politicians today. My parents raised me better than that. I am just a guy who lives by reasonable man theory, who loves my country, and my family. And took an oath many years ago to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. And while we still have external threats to our country, I believe that the biggest threat right now is already here, internal to our system. Idiot politicians who are spending us, our children and our grandchildren into non-existence, trying to socialize our country, trying to legislate away our rights, trampling on our Constitution. That is the threat.
I suppose if I did go, I could bring up legislation to ban scary things like, Pelosi, Feinstein, Rangel, progressives in general, Obammy care and so on. Much scarier than any semi auto rifle or pistol.
I also wouldn't mind shoving a copy of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.... well.... let's just say.... under their doors.
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S 32 Public Hearing February 7th in Montpelier, you'll be hearing more about it.
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Thor- That was some of the best reading I have done in a long time. Thanks
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No one can say if an armed person in these situations would have been better or worse. Can you imagine more people shooting at someone in a dark theater? I understand the though, but practically speaking, most people don't have the training or resolve to clearly think in those situations. I say most because there are those who can.
As for the gun nuts, I enjoy the videos just as much as anyone.. FPSRUSSIA is great. Being a gun enthusiast doesn't make you mentally ill, but being bipolar and off meds might qualify. I still don't see gun laws doing much for crime. It'd be more practical to add non invasive protocols at public places to avoid as much risk. Avoid door propping, profile people who might be an issue keep an eye on your guns. Profiling is an art not a science, I don't mean pulling a goth kid aside because of his music and clothes or hunters because they have guns. Watch how people treat people and step in if it looks like someone isn't doing well. Hind sight is 20/20, you can't always see what's wrong with someone, taking away guns won't take away crazy.
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A little to think about while the bill is in session.
On Sunday December 17, 2012, 2 days after the CT shooting, a man went to a restaurant in San Antonio to kill his X-girlfriend. After he shot her, most of the people in the restaurant fled next door to a theater. The gunman followed them and entered the theater so he could shoot more people. He started shooting and people in the theater started running and screaming. It’s like the Aurora, CO theater story plus a restaurant!
Now aren't you wondering why this isn't a lead story in the national media along with the school shooting?
There was an off duty county deputy at the theater. SHE pulled out her gun and shot the man 4 times before he had a chance to kill anyone. So since this story makes the point that the best thing to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun, the media is treating it like it never happened.
Only the local media covered it. The city is giving her a medal next week
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Monte,
Excellent post.... too true!
nhibbard,
Don't get caught up in thinking in a one dimensional environment. The world is 3D. The threat could be above you, below you, to your front, side, rear. With that said, if you think you are responsible enough to carry a weapon with you at all times, hopefully you have felt the obligation / responsibility to get trained with it. Along with that, you have to know your own limitations. And being situationally aware enough to decide whether or not you can help the situation by drawing your weapon and eliminating the threat or not drawing your weapon and not adding to possible collateral damage is a split second call that may have ramifications that you will have to live with for the rest of your life. Assuming you live through the situation.
But with that said, training your family in how to react to certain situations can be just as advantagous. When we go out to dinner, my family actually knows where I want to sit, in order to allow me the best veiwing of the restaurant, the entrance point and the majority of the people in there and ease of draw for me. Considerations such as where is the closest exit, how many people are between us and the exit, etc... When we walk down the street, they know where to position themselves in order to not hinder me in dealing with a chance encounter on the street. My kids know that if an active shooter in the school makes it into their classroom, everything in their classroom should be considered a weapon and they better use it like their life depends on it. (because it does). Throwing books, throwing chairs, stabbing with pens, pencils.... everything and anything goes. I have taught them to close the distance and try to kill the person with every ounce of effort they can. I preach to them not to die cowering in the corner. But in today's passive society, this would be frowned upon. College students at Virginia Tech, died in a classroom, and did nothing while the shooter conducted a reload. He actually stopped shooting to reload and nobody did anything!
In a confrontation, you have two things to consider.... distance to the threat, and do I have an out. If the threat is close to you, you have to be willing to immediately close the distance and try to kill the bastard. Or if you think you can run and seek cover, then you can do that. But where are you going to run to in a locked down school? We cannot continue to teach our kids to be sheep, when the wolves are out there.
This is a mental game, having the ability to throw the switch and do whatever you need to do to save yourself and your family or friends. My kids are well trained with weapons, but my youngest doesn't really have the desire to work with them. My oldest, I would trust with my life to make the right decision and not hesitate to pull the trigger. But again, this speaks to the responsibility to train and train hard. Train in stressful situtaions. Induce the most stress you can without making the training unsafe. Know the weapon you are carrying, the effective range you can employ it, what the backdrop is if you miss, shoot for the torso as it is the largest target to hit on a moving threat and so on. In the old days, we used to train to come through the door and shoot all the bad guys in the head, as that typically ensures an immediate kill. But that was on stationary targets. After we began engaging real targets that were moving in a room, in the dark, and shooting back at us, we realized the error in our ways and began going to the body, as many times as necessary to eliminate the threat. But as I stated before, it is all based on training. And I believe that we can train the average citizen to do fairly well in a high stress situation, if they want to train to that level. And in the end, if they don't feel that they are capable, then the mature, adult decision is whether or not to carry a weapon.
Last thoughts..... Never bring a hope and a prayer to a gunfight, as usually the bad guy with the gun wins. An armed individual has a chance. An unarmed individual could be the next victim. Typically these individuals that conduct these shootings, shoot themselves as soon as someone with a gun arrives on scene. Perhaps if there was someone armed and trained in any of these tragic incidents, these scumbags would whack themselves even quicker and reduce the loss of life.
But as you say, hind sight is 20/20. And taking guns away from hopefully safe, well trained, law abiding citizens is certainly not the answer. Evil is out there, always lurking and waiting for the opportunity to strike. And the police usually arrive to conduct the investigation. (not a dig on law enforcement, but they cannot be everywhere all the time). So, for all the sheep that are out there, we have to have people willing to be the sheepdogs and protect the innocent from the wolves.
Apologies for my lengthy posts. But this is something I feel very strongly about.
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Interesting read....
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/01/new_york_declares_war_on_the_second_amendment.html
Thor
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Thor,
I've read many of your posts on this forum and it's clear that you and I disagree on many political issues. (Some people have even used that nasty "L" word to describe me.)
But I'm with you on this one.
Our politicians, although they can't seem to make any progress on our larger problems, are falling over each other to get to the microphone on this one. In the end, they will pass legislation that doesn't make much difference. They'll expand background checks (I'm OK with that, but it won't make much difference because that's not how the bad guys get their weapons), limit magazine size (again, will only effect the law-abiding), and spend lots of time arguing about whether a weapon is fundamentally different because it has a telescoping stock, or a bayonet mount, or is black, or whatever.
To me, the essence of the second amendment is the right to self-defense. Folks may say that no one needs a 30-round magazine, but what would you do if your door were kicked in by five crackheads? And maybe no one needs an AR-15 in particular, but if I were ex-military and that was the weapon I was most familiar with, it might well be my choice for self-defense. (Well, probably not. But it should be my choice) Especially since no matter what legislation is passed, there are still 5 million of them out there, and there's no way the government will be able to get them out of circulation.
"Excuse me Mr. Thor, but I'm here at your home representing your government and I'd like you to give me all the magazines you have that hold more than 6 rounds. And if you have a rifle with a pistol grip, you should hand that over also.”
Yeah, right.
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Totally agree Norton.
So let's just think about this for a minute... On the day of the Sandy Hook shooting, there were probably somewhere between 5,000,000 and 7,000,000 AR15's out in the general population. And the number of 20 or 30 round magazines that work with the AR style weapon, let's put it at 5,000,000. As typically when one purchases an AR, the manufacturer supplies one magazine with the rifle. Most AR owners own a heck of a lot more mags, but we will stick with the one per gun for now. Now, I don't know for sure if ****bag in Sandy Hook, used the AR, as some are saying it was still in his vehicle, but let's just assume he did. That would mean that (and we will use the low numbers so as not to appear to over-dramatizing this.... on the day that the children and heroic staff at the school were gunned down, 4,999,999 legally owned firearms and 4,999,999 high capacity magazines were not used in an illegal act. And the gun he had was purchased legally, he just acquired it illegally. So why would this need any legislative attention? Why not just figure out the best ways to protect our children while at school? I have now read knuckleheads bill a number of times. About the only thing I can really garner from it, he is afraid of guns!
And lastly, just to stay on the soapbox a bit longer.... Obammy talked about how HE was the one who got bin Laden, how AQ is now on the run. How HE authorized the operation and the SEAL's went in and conducted the raid. So my question is this..... did the guns kill bin Laden or did the SEAL's kill bin Laden. Everyone says the SEAL's got him. So did the gun kill those kids at Sandy Hook or did the shooter kill those kids? Can't have it both ways Obammy.
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Thor,
ALL very well said. I have enjoyed reading your posts. You are very educated and are putting to words what many of us want to say, but may not know exactly how to say it. Thank you for that. And to add you said you can't go into a gunfight with a hope & a prayer I guess we are supposed to go in with a piece of paper drawn up by politicians stating we can't have the right to defend or fight back. This is very scary!
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NPM, and all interested persons,
I just wanted to pass on a test that I have conducted now for two days. I loaded a couple of guns and laid them on the dining room table. One a long gun.... AR type (scary as it is!) and the other a pistol (with a mag that had way more than 10 rounds) (also very scary). Anyway.... I left those guns there all day, all night and into today. Can you believe those damn things didn't kill anybody!! They didn't kill anyone. They didn't even move. So I took the selector switch off safe on the AR and I actually cocked the hammer on the pistol so it is now in single action. I left them again. Just watching and watching and watching. Nothing happened, except my kids telling me the status of my weapons was unsafe. But those things didn't kill anyone or anything. Never even fired. Must be defective or maybe, just maybe.... this is the experimental results that need to be passed on to that knucklehead Senator Baruth.
Not sure I can come up with anything else to explain that this guy on the state level and Obammy on the federal level are full of ..it. They are making an attempt to begin breaking down the 2nd Amendment, a piece at a time. And I know that you are all smart enough to know that once the 2nd Amendment goes, the rest are doomed to follow like dominos.
Spread the word, fight this like your rights depend on it... all of them.
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Here's some fun for you. Check out this link and see if you can guess who said all these things - http://aattp.org/7-famous-quotes-from-a-tyrannical-gun-grabbing-dictator/ (http://aattp.org/7-famous-quotes-from-a-tyrannical-gun-grabbing-dictator/).
Please tell me how any of these 23 actions are infringing on our 2nd Amendment rights:
1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.
2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.
3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.
4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.
5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.
6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.
7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.
8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).
9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.
10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.
11. Nominate an ATF director.
12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.
13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.
14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.
15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies
16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.
17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.
18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.
19. Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.
20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.
21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.
22. Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.
23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.
Now is the time to have a RATIONAL discussion on this topic (S 32 is not rational). Saying things like "They are making an attempt to begin breaking down the 2nd Amendment, a piece at a time. And I know that you are all smart enough to know that once the 2nd Amendment goes, the rest are doomed to follow like dominos." is not rational and does not aid in the discussion. There can and needs to be reasonable steps taken to find a way that mass shootings do not occur with the frequency that happen in this country. There are a number of things that need to be looked at including, but not limited to, gun control, quality mental health care and enforcement of the current laws.
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when are they going to realize that the mental health system is the whole issue here. They need to drop their personal attack on guns and start putting real money into understanding and research on the mental health system. As it stands right now doctors are regulary pilling it away. That is in their minds a quick fix. In a lot of cases it makes the situations worse. Look up SSRI's gone bad. I have a freind that never had a violent episode in his life until they gave him welebran. he is now in a hospital for a violent outburst and they are still giving him the drugs. It is crazy. when are they going to look at this. I understand a lot of times it does work, but not all the time. I also have some experience of people seeking some counceling for some issues and they were denied because they refused the meds. That sounds like a drug pusher. And yes doctors do get insentives when the do push meds.
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Tfence,
That is it. But we cannot allow them to force doctors to "tell" on their patients.
Kevin,
Okay, you want a "rational" discussion. Let's do it:
1) Which part of "shall NOT be infringed" in the 2nd Amendment do you not understand.
2) Background checks.... okay, I will take a little bit more pain to get my weapons, but it ain't going to effect the bad guys at all.
3) You want better mental health care..... well just wait and see what happens to the system as more and more doctors leave the health care system because of Obammycare.
4) You want to protect the kids. Don't we all, but the difference between you and I is that I am a realist and live by reasonable man theory. You think gun control is going to protect all of the kids. While a wonderful thought, and it must be very nice in your utopian society, we will differ here. I think that by adding more guns to the schools, in the hands of well qualified security is the answer. And even then there are still risks. The good guys cannot be everywhere all the time.
5) Where was the "rational" discussion on the national level? NRA was invited to the meeting only to sit there and listen to all the gunhater groups. Now the NRA supporters are being compared to the Nazi's, and al Qaeda.
6) Where is the rational discussion on the state level? Knee jerk reactions by uneducated politicians.
7) Do you realize that more people were killed in Chicago last year, than the number of our servicemembers who were killed in Afghanistan? Toughest gun laws in the country right there.
Many folks have posted here agreeing that we need to fix the system, but not by screwing with the law abiding citizen. If I want a 100 round drum magazine, I should be able to have it, regardless of how scary it looks. I would say focus on the criminals and not the law abiding.
When you figure out how to legislate away, evil, crime, mental issues, drug abuse..... please put it out there, as there are many, many folks who want to hear about it.
What I don't need is Baruth, Biden or Obammy telling me what I can and cannot have.
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Please tell me exactly how more laws (more pieces of paper) are going to help our country and protect my children and yours. The people doing the killing are going to kill one way or another. If they don't own a gun they'll steal one or go to the corner and buy one illegally. Again, how is a piece of paper going to stop that? Is the piece of paper going to stop illegal sales of guns? NO! And if they can't get a gun, they'll find another way to complete what they've set out to do. Personally I am surprised that we have not seen car bombs and suicide attacks in the US. We hear about them every day on the news, but surprisingly not here. Exploring mental health issues is fine, but let's get people jobs so they can put food on the table, have a decent place to live and bring some morals back to this country. When you don't have a job, you can't provide for your family, your mental health state does diminish. You may resort to drugs and alcohol to numb the feelings of failure, hunger, anger & more. Video games have a similar affect on the mind. You shoot and people get right back up or you can push reset and they are alive again. Those sort of games also numb the senses when you play them all the time. So, how are more laws and taking away guns going to solve the problem in our country? It isn't. In fact with the state of world in such turmoil it makes me want to go out and buy the biggest, baddest guns out there just so I'll be able to defend your family and mine....and yes, I'm I pretty damn good shot (for a girl).
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Thor,
1)In case you were not aware the 23 points that I listed are the recommendations/executive actions that President Obama has put forth in response to the current political discussion on gun control. These are what I was referring to when I asked where our 2nd Amendment rights were being infringed upon. If you read them carefully you will see that there is no infringing taking place. I understand "shall not be infringed." So, referring back to my original question...please tell me how these are infringing on 2nd Amendment rights.
2) Wow a point we can agree on.
3)There is not a possible shortage of doctors but a rather a possible shortage of primary care physicians. And the Affordable Care Act is not the primary cause of this shortage. Like many issues there are other factors to this. Some of these factors are an aging population and new doctors becoming specialists instead of primary care physicians.
4) I do not live in a utopian society but I also don't live in the fantasy land of "man theory" where guns solve all the problems. Armed officers in schools can help but are not the answer. We already have proof of this. In Columbine, CO there was a police officer at the high school and 2 more arrived within 3 minutes of the beginning of the attack. These 3 officers exchanged gunfire with the attackers and did not stop them. In fact they did not even injure them. The good guys were there in this instance, had guns and were unable to stop the situation. I will concede that armed officers are a deterrent but they are not the only answer.
5) The NRA is not a lead by rational people and therefore cannot be relied upon to offer reasonable answers. Don't agree with me, then please see this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miSjgv1MH7s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miSjgv1MH7s). Now read this - http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/4-pinocchios-for-a-slashing-nra-ad-on-security-at-sidwell-friends-school/2013/01/16/95b2127a-6032-11e2-9940-6fc488f3fecd_blog.html?fb_ref=sm_btn_fb (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/4-pinocchios-for-a-slashing-nra-ad-on-security-at-sidwell-friends-school/2013/01/16/95b2127a-6032-11e2-9940-6fc488f3fecd_blog.html?fb_ref=sm_btn_fb) The fact that the NRA will not consider any gun control at all means that they can't see the whole issue. How can they be involved in the discussion when they can't act from an unbiased position. And people on both sides of the debate are compared to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, et al. This is extreme and inaccurate.
6) The discussion on gun control on the state level in VT is going to be in early February at the State House. I think the date is Feb 7. It remains to be seen how rational this discussion is.
7) Yes.
So as a law abiding citizen you would like to own what ever you feel is necessary to make yourself feel safer. Just remember that since this stuff is available to you then the bad guys will have it too. You might want to join NPM and get the biggest, baddest gun out there.
Isn't it possible, just possible, that if magazine sizes were restricted it might reduce the carnage in mass shootings? You stated that you teach your kids to attack an attacker when the attacker is reloading. Would it be better to wait for 30 or 100 bullets to finish firing before attacking or how about waiting until just 5 or 10 have been fired?
I am not in favor of banning guns. Enforce the laws on the books, have better mental healthcare and maybe just maybe have some sort of gun control.
NPM - If someone plays violent video games and translates that into reality because they have become numb to the violence then that person has other issues. A violent video game or movie does not make someone go out and be violent. This is akin to blaming music for violence, drug abuse and sex (look up the Parents Music Resource Center and the "Filthy Fifteen"). Not having a job does affect your mental health but wouldn't having a solid mental health system to turn to help your handle your issues? Go ahead and buy the biggest, baddest gun out there - one might be the 500 Smith & Wesson .50 caliber Magnum (http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/recreation/1277336 (http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/recreation/1277336)) . If you prefer rifles you could get the ASquare Hannibal 557 Tyrannosaur (http://www.gizmag.com/the-most-powerful-sporting-rifle-in-the-world/9051/ (http://www.gizmag.com/the-most-powerful-sporting-rifle-in-the-world/9051/)). These ones are pretty big so you might want to practice...even if you're already a pretty damn good shot.
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Kevin,
I recognized your list of 23 "points" that Obammy put forth on recommendation from Biden. But I would hardly agree with you calling it a "political discussion". More like a witch hunt.
The Columbine shooters were shooting for 46 minutes. 6 minutes into their rampage, they encountered their first police officer and exchanged fire with him. There was a School Resource Officer (SRO) assigned to Columbine, but on that day he was not at the school. The policeman they exchanged fire with was responding to the two pipe bombs they had set off as a diversionary charge in a field near the school.
The fact that the police officer was unable to stop them speaks to training. Perhaps it was his first armed encounter. Perhaps he had not witnessed such carnage before and was shocked at the destruction. Perhaps he was following department rules about not entering a structure without a shooting partner. Perhaps the standard operating procedure was to call in the SWAT team. Perhaps he should have carried many more high capacity magazines. Perhaps he should have spent more time on the range or trained on something other than paper targets. We will never know.
But neither one of them had an "assault rifle". They each had a 9mm pistol and a 12 guage shotgun. No assault rifles used here.
In my opinion one of the things that allowed for them to be so successful in their attack, was because of the reaction of the students. When the two entered the library where they killed 10 of the 12 people they killed, no one fled. No one fought back, no one did anything except cower. How do we know that.... because they actually let a kid go that they knew and he was debriefed extensively.
With regards to the NRA and the fact that they can't act from an unbiased position.... are you kidding me.... do you think Biden's working group was being unbiased?
Things that I want to own are already in the hands of the bad guys. You ever take down a drug house? You ever stop a mule vehicle for the cartels? Trust me.... the bad guys have this stuff already.
Only sheep will wait for the shooter to be reloading before trying to do something. It has to be game on the moment they hear something or the commotion starts. Perhaps we should do a drill where we set up a bullet trap in the school, put the kids in their classroom and shoot a few shots in the hallway. Then they would know what the danger sounds like and the students and staff would know that something is very, very wrong. In Columbine, students actually kept walking in the hallway towards the shooters, because they didn't know what was going on.
Your not in favor of banning guns, but "maybe, just maybe, have some sort of gun control". You obviously DO NOT understand "shall NOT be infringed".
Your sarcasm about getting the biggest, baddest gun falls way short. I would love to talk weapons, ammunition, internal ballistics, transition ballistics, external ballistics and interior or terminal ballistics, building assaults, urban operations and active shooter response with you, but I don't have time. I gotta head off to the range. The sheepdogs never have time to rest.
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I'm done since you can't see any side of the issue but your own. So much for engaging in conversation.
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Interesting reading http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/2013/01/18/napolitano-guns-and-the-government/ (http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/2013/01/18/napolitano-guns-and-the-government/)
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This was writen by a freind of mine. Bill Jolly, NH.
I've been in the military for almost 26 years. I was a cop for about 7. When the "black helicopter " crowd would say that they were getting ready for when "they" come, I wondered who "they" are, since I would assume that I would be part of the anticipated "them" and that I (personally) will never seize any property owned by a citizen of the U.S.. Almost to a person, I have gotten the impression that my fellow soldiers and police officers have a similar sentiment.
With that said, I do believe that there is an effort under way at the highest levels to move our nation to a more fascist existence. The people in power who are pushing for gun registration know full well that having a serial number on file will do absolutely nothing to slow the pace of crime, and that criminals will not register their guns. This is simply the exploitation of an absolute tragedy for the purpose of control of people's ability to live freely.
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tfence,
Your friend Bill obviously remembers the oath he took.
And I know that Kevin has given up, because "I can't see any side of the issue by my own", when in fact, it was because I wouldn't agree with his side of the issue. But he failed to see the whole picture of this gun control legislation. First of all, three of Obammys' 23 executive actions are labeled as "Presidential Memorandums" (#'s 1, 9, 14) are unconstitutional. Beyond his desires, Feinstein will be introducing her "Assault Weapons Ban" legislation on Tuesday the 22nd. I thought I would include just a couple of the items listed in her legislation.
Ban the sale, transfer, importation, and manufacturing of 120 specifically named rifles, shotguns and handguns!
Ban the sale, transfer, importation and manufacturing of ALL firearms with a detachable magazine and at least one "military characteristic"
Ban the sale, transfer, importation, and manufacturing of magazines holding more than 10 rounds;
Force owners of ALL "grandfathered" weapons to undergo an intrusive background check and fingerprinting-- treating law-abiding citizens like criminals;
Force owners of ALL "grandfathered" weapons to federally register their guns after obtaining a permission slip from local law enforcement showing their guns are not in violation of state or local law.
If you own a $10 magazine that’s more than 10 rounds, you’ll have to register it with the BATFE in their National Firearms Registry.
If that is not infringing on the 2nd A, then I do not know what is.
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thor your just a big bullie ,and im glad
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Senator Baruth is withdrawing the bill.
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Great news. The second amendment still stands strong
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Thor,
You need to work on your reading comprehension. I wrote what I meant. I see no point in discussing the issue further with you simply because you refuse to see any side of the issue but your own, not because you will not agree with me. You throw around words like unconstitutional, fascism, tyranny and socialism without really understanding what they mean. If people really think that the US is moving towards a fascist/tyrannical/socialist government then they should educate themselves.
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Senator Baruth is withdrawing the bill.
Great News, good way to start the week! Must be Mr Baruth was sick of getting calls from the people that voted him into the power he thought he had.
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Kevin,
My reading comprehension is fine. For someone who doesn't know me, you seem to think you have a solid read on me. Very interesting. I know exactly what I am talking about. You are the one who "gave up". Those words are not in my vocabulary. Have a great day!
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Thanks, you too!
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from Senator Don Collins
Thanks to everyone in Fairfax and Fletcher who contacted on me about the "gun bill" S.32. It appeared that there might be a hearing on the bill, but as of this time it appears that this bill will not come out of committee for a vote by the full Senate. Senator Don Collins
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from Senator Don Collins
Thanks to everyone in Fairfax and Fletcher who contacted on me about the "gun bill" S.32. It appeared that there might be a hearing on the bill, but as of this time it appears that this bill will not come out of committee for a vote by the full Senate. Senator Don Collins
This is good news!
Corm
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Very humorous development in this latest issue. The Lamoille Valley Fish and Game Club (Shooting Range) has banned the Burlington Police from being able to use this range, because the Burlington City Council is still proceeding with an "Assault Weapons Ban" within the city limits. With that said, the LVFGC has said that the police cannot train at their facility due to the fact that this is an infringement on their members who may have to travel through Burlington city limits while enroute to the range. Wonder what the city council will do in response to their police department personnel not being able to train with the very weapons they rely upon to protect the locals. You know.... these same law enforcement officials who would be the ones responding to an active shooter incident. Politicians crack me up and if it wasn't so sad.... I would be laughing.
We should develop a range in our local area, and provide maximum tactical training to the law enforcement agencies that are responsible for responding to an incident in our area. A thankful and grateful law enforcement agency tends to respond quicker and more deliberately to a known entity than to an unknown. Can't hurt helping those that we rely on.