Fairfax News => Current News & Events => Topic started by: Julie & 6pt Dave on February 20, 2010, 08:39:29 AM
Title: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Julie & 6pt Dave on February 20, 2010, 08:39:29 AM
Please take the quick minute to respond to this poll. It is completely informal. Others just might curious how everyone feels about Fairfax's Town Meeting Day.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: David Shea on February 20, 2010, 10:03:29 AM
Julie,
It would be great if you also had a comment section on your survey.
My comment would be that I have gone to town meeting the past 3 years. I am not able to stay for the entire meeting & my wife or myself ( depending on who stays home ) is not able to go, since one of us needs to stay home with our kids.
Town meeting should be used to discuss issues, but voting should happen in the voting booth.
My personal opinion is that all large monetary expenses should be voted on by ballot on not at town meeting. Last year 155 people who went to town meeting, give or take, authorized spending in access of 250,000.00 for warned items. The number of registered voters in town is appox 1700. In my opinion 9% of the population is not representative sample to authorize spending of this magnitude.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: trussell on February 20, 2010, 10:11:46 AM
Dave, that's a very good point and I think I agree. With absentee ballots, plus a full 12 hrs of poll availability, it makes ballot voting accessable to almost everyone. I know several towns already do it that way.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: David Shea on February 20, 2010, 10:19:59 AM
Trevor,
I plan on filing a petition to the registered voters of Fairfax to approve a change to require the voting of large monetary expenditures by australian ballot vs an open floor vote at town meeting. I have informally spoken with several people about this idea and the general consensus is that most people are in favor of this form of governmental spending of tax procedes.
I will be sure to see you when I have made the petition. Are there other members of this forum who agree that large ticket items should be approved by ballot vs 155 people or 9% of the registered voters? If so please reply to this thread.
Thanks in advance David Shea
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Henry on February 20, 2010, 10:25:08 AM
I mention this almost every year, but have been unsuccessful. I don't know all the ins an outs, but the vote on this I believe takes place at the town meeting from the floor and usually gets voted down. I am behind you Dave. Austrailian Ballot on these items is the way to go. 50 people at this open meeting can vote in just about anything they want.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: trussell on February 20, 2010, 10:30:36 AM
Yep, feel free to contact me. I think you should define "large" though- to some, $10,000 would be a large expense but simone else might be thinking $100k... I don't really have a particular number in mind though. I believe an item needs to be voted on a year before it hoes into effect though... So now you're looking at 2012 before it happens.
And Henry, i believe that with the proper number of signatures, anyone can get an item on the ballot instead of just a warned item. I may be mistaken though.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Henry on February 20, 2010, 10:34:44 AM
That would be interesting to find out, because whenever I brought it up it had to go on the warning and got kicked out before it got to the ballot the next year. Anybody with the official word on that??
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: greenek on February 20, 2010, 10:36:36 AM
David,
I agree with you that large expenditures should be voted on by Australian ballot, and not on town meeting day.
Kevin
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: cestreet on February 20, 2010, 10:39:11 AM
I agree with the idea that all large sums should be voted by Australian ballot. I also think more people should go to Town Meeting. It drives me nuts when people who don't attend act all victimized because "such a small portion of the voters make these big decisions without any say from the rest of us."
Just my 2 cents.
Clarice Streets
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: ASDuling on February 20, 2010, 10:55:37 AM
I think a good question is "why" if people are not attending town meeting day for reasons other than non-resident. It may help get more people involved. For example, I've heard child care is an issue for a few people.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Julie & 6pt Dave on February 20, 2010, 11:05:11 AM
David, I would add a comment section if I could, but the poll feature doesn't allow it. Comments to the post is the way to go and was hoping it would generate some discussion.
I agree that big ticket money should be voted on by Australian ballot. Voter turnout is low as it is and even Australian ballot isn't a true consensus of how the town feels. And I also wonder if it means that the Vermont Town Meeting in Fairfax will eventually die out. I never see a big turn out at the Saturday meeting as it is. I am always amazed at the lack of interest (from the community at large) at the actual presentation of the Town and School budgets and am even more astounded at the low numbers of citizens who actually turn out to vote. Has Fairfax outgrown that small town feel where everyone feels they have a say in the town? Is it truly a bedroom community where people don't really care what happens? Are people just to busy to bother nowadays? Is childcare an issue? Just wondering...
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: cestreet on February 20, 2010, 11:52:26 AM
While childcare may be a reason for many people, the REAL reason child care issues get in the way (in my opinion) of attendance is a question of priorities. If people felt it were important enough, they would make child care arrangements. There is plenty of notice, and somehow we find a way to have our child care needs met if there is something we consider important going on... A trip to Jamaica, a weekend away without the kids, etc. We collectively don't consider this event important enough to do that kind of planning. I think it's sad, and I hope it doesn't end up dying out.
Clarice Streets
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Julie & 6pt Dave on February 20, 2010, 11:57:22 AM
In the past, the Girl Scouts have provided this opportunity to residents right there at the school FOR NO CHARGE . It was a community service activity for the troop. I was a leader and did this with my troop for a number of years a few years back, and I have to say, we didn't have that much business. I don't think that lack of childcare is anything but an excuse for a lot of people.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: gpdvt on February 20, 2010, 04:35:36 PM
I agree that any tax dollars that are going to be spent should be done at the voting booth. As for why people don't show up, one possiblity might be that many people who relocate here(myself included) come from places where "town meeting day" means going to a polling place. There may be confusion as to what happens at "town meeting" vs voting booth, so perhaps some think the real important things are done at the voting booth, thus they don't bother with the "town meeting".
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: JKandBoys on February 20, 2010, 07:36:13 PM
This year we will be out of town so I can't attend. However my husband is staying behind so he will be there. In years past childcare was an issue for us. We don't have a babysitter who we use on any occasion, so it is not merely a question of where our priorities lie. If there was childcare available we would definitely use it and appreciate it.. (Perhaps it could be used as an opportunity for babysitters to connect with families for future jobs.) I also agree that large expenditures should be voted on at the polling booth.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Julie & 6pt Dave on February 21, 2010, 09:21:26 AM
Bumping it up... Keep these conversations alive...
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Dick Brown on February 21, 2010, 11:05:07 AM
My two cents, for what it's worth. Back in the day, voting on items in an Australian Budget form was looked upon by School Board members, Selectmen and this school administrator as a greater opportunity for negative residents to vote no without hearing all the facts. I think we might have missed the point, or did not give enough credence to the feeling among our townspeople, about their not having an opportunity to vote or attend the meeting due to other obligations, including making a living. When we finally did change to a Saturday Meeting, mainly for discussion purposes, both of the Selectmen and School Board members endorsed the plan and felt it would lead to more participation by the residents. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be as successful as we might have hoped twenty years ago, but it still seems worthy to me, as long as the votes take place later ( on Town Meeting Day, I would presume ). Having a chance to explain items or answer questions by engaging in discussions with the final decision-makers was usually lengthy, sometimes contentious but always worth it. On the whole, most of us who were involved in implementing budgets or mandates welcomed both the process and fortunately, got the results we hoped for. The one time we were turned down on the School Budget vote, Raymond McNall, Ralph's father, made an impassioned speech to the audience before that meeting ended, which resulted in the administrators taking a closer look into how we were presenting our request and reaching our goals. If we had simply had a yes or no vote by Australian Ballot, who knows how long it would have been before we got a positive approval from the voters . What you have in Fairfax, with it's Saturday meeting and Tuesday voting, is an excellent model for the democratic process . And to the late Doug Webb , an acknowledgement that he was right, as usual, way back then.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Dick Brown on February 21, 2010, 09:31:23 PM
Henry I was brousing through comments made on The Forum today, and noticed that I had left out the word "not " which should have preceded the word " successful " in my narrative. A senior moment I fear. 66* out tonight with rain coming in...still an upgrade from what we had la few days ago !! Hope you & Maryann have a good week.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Henry on February 21, 2010, 10:13:41 PM
Hi Dick,
I went in and added the word. If you ever find that you do have something you want to correct, you should be able to click on the post and click modify on any of the post you did and make any changes then click on save. If I did not edit it the way you wanted, just go up and click on it, then modify and save it the correct way.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: mirjo on February 22, 2010, 05:02:41 PM
Quote
I also think more people should go to Town Meeting.
Some people have to work.
I don't think anything should be voted on at town meeting, I think it should all be done by ballot, but especially anything involving money, regardless of how large or small.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Robin F on February 22, 2010, 05:13:36 PM
I have to agree with those who say that it is really an issue of priority for many people. While there are some who have legitimate reasons why they cannot make it (work commitments are an issue and I think that child care is an issue for some, although it is likely also an excuse for many people), for most people I think it is just a function of the fact that they are not interested enough in attending to make it a priority.
I am not originally from Vermont, and where I grew up there is no such thing as "Town Meeting." But, I have gone to Town Meeting every year I have lived in Vermont because I think it is a great tradition and the best way (short of actually attending every Board meeting) to become informed about the items we are actually voting on. When I get home, I relay the information to my wife, who is watching our kids during the meeting, so she can get as much of the information as she can (she usually also gives me some questions she wants answered before I go to the meeting). Perhaps there should be a ceiling on the amount of expenditure that can be authorized from the floor, but for the most part I think that if the items we vote on at the Meeting were truly important to that many people, more would come to the meeting itself instead of complaining afterward.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: roadkill on February 23, 2010, 09:58:56 AM
I like things the way they are however there are pros and cons to everything. On one hand you can never replace the great sense of Democracy that Vermont has to offer regarding Town Government and local controll but on the other are you truly getting the majority of the voice of the people by voting on certain Articles at Town meeting.
First and foremost is the Town Report. Is it accurate? Does it include everything a registered voter needs to know before making a decision? In this years case I say no. There is no line item budget for the Rec Department and Article 7 has already caused much controversy. Have the registered voters of Fairfax been properly warned and informed to make these deciosions at the polling booth without going to Town meeting? No. You can never get rid of Town meeting, this is the oppurtunity for the people to become informed voters.
On the other hand, What if all of the 2,948 registered voters showed up for Town meeting. ( Dave Shea, I got that number from the Town clerk 2 weeks ago) Dean Potter (The fire chief) would shut the meeting down because BFA does not have a room large enough to accomadate that many people.
On the other hand, How many do we have. A veteran or servicemember stationed overseas in Iraq or Afghanistan or elsewhere can ONLY vote by absentee ballot and CANNOT vote on any of the Articles presented to be voted on at Town Meeting. A servicemember in Fletcher cannot vote on anything in that town by absentee ballot because everything is done at Town meeting. Is that fair? Is that Democracy?
Julie, it is an interesting question. The balance between Democracy and the growing population of a Town. The key is to find the right balance. The school does a great job with their public input sessions regarding the budget prior to Town meeting thus giving everyone the oppurtunity to be part of the process. I like that.
I dont always attend Town meeting but do so when I feel I am uninformed or misinformed. I ALWAYS vote. 622 people voted by australlian ballot last year which is about 21 % of the registered voters. (got that number from the Town clerk too Dave).
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Henry on February 23, 2010, 10:17:22 AM
Back before 1958, I was working 5 1/2 days a week and in order to attend Town Meeting I would have had to take the day off without pay. During some of the years I was making $45 and $50 a week. Not a big salary and I was single, but I needed every penny to make it. I did not get vacation and if I was sick and couldn't go in to work, I did not get paid.
I am wondering how many people in this day and age, still would have to take the day off without pay to go to vote. Also, if they have to hire a babysitter, that can be expensive. I happen to have been one of those people criticized for not attending Town Meeting between 1954 & 1958 for not attending. I did so one year and got up and suggested we vote by Austrailian Ballot and was quickly put in my place by some Old Time Fairfax Residents - I never went back to Town Meeting until 1959, when I was working for IBM and they gave me time off with pay to go to Town Meeting. I too pretty much agree with the Town Meeting discussion part, but am an advocate for voting by Austrailian Ballot on money issues.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Chris Santee on February 23, 2010, 10:27:26 AM
It is my understanding Article 7 will be decided on Saturday.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Julie & 6pt Dave on February 23, 2010, 12:13:57 PM
If we truly do have 2948 registered voters this year, and truly only had 622 of our citizens vote last year (~21%), then what explains the apathy of the other 79% of Fairfax's population? I guess I am understanding some responses to not attending Town Meeting on Saturday due to work, childcare, etc. Personally, I feel that these people are going into the voting booths a bit less informed than the population who does attend Saturday's meeting and listen to the presentations, but that is their personal choice. The bigger problem is the polls are open for 12 hours on Tuesdays for voting and we only have 1/5 of our residents caring enough to give input. Why don't people exercise their right to vote? We've fought long and hard in this country to be able to have this privilege, and yet, people don't take advantage of it.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Julie & 6pt Dave on February 23, 2010, 12:16:55 PM
And, heck, speaking of apathy for that matter, only 38 members of this forum of 278 have bothered to give their input into this informal poll.... (that's only 13% by the way)
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: cestreet on February 23, 2010, 06:18:14 PM
Julie,
On top of what you said, the few members that have responded are obviously NOT representative of the overall population, as evidenced by the high rate of affirmative responses about voting and attendance at TMD. My opinion is that we are our own worst enemies in this great Democracy, to which we (collectively) do not show nearly enough respect or appreciation.
Clarice Streets
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: David Shea on February 23, 2010, 06:50:36 PM
I am glad that I brought to light the lack of attendance at town meeting. It is ok with me that my figures for registered voters was incorrect. 1700 vs 2900, I was off by 1200 registered voters, but my point still is valid.
5% of our registered voters decided to how to spend over 250,000.00
21% showed up to vote at the voting booth.
21% is greater than 5% the figures prove that more people are able to show up at the voting booth vs town meeting. Many valid point have been made here. I just like Henry have voiced my opinion at town meeting, only to be met with ridicule. Last year I took my 6 year old son to town meeting and a woman who was sitting next to me made rude comments to me about how he was having trouble sitting still. This woman also made faces at my son. Consequently we left.
My intentions are not to target any one request for funds. My intent is to have a larger sample of the population vote on spending. It is clear ballot voting does this.
I have noticed that many folks on the forum like to shield themselves behind pen names. I decided from the the start that I would not do this. I encourage you all to lift the mask and stand tall and proud with your names for all of us to see.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: mirjo on February 23, 2010, 07:04:32 PM
As I have stated in other places on the forum: although the power is in the people; the people do not realize this and therefore consider voting a waste of time. If everyone of voting age actually voted (I'm sure that is more than 2900 people in FFx?), it's likely politics wouldn't be in the sorry state it's in and has been in for about 40 years. :P
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Julie & 6pt Dave on February 26, 2010, 08:03:58 PM
The totals are in. I guess I'll see half of you tomorrow.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: slpott on February 27, 2010, 03:46:11 AM
I am not originally from here but why can't TMD be a week ahead of time or so and be recorded for viewing. This is done in the elementary for 4-winds and it works great. It allows the teachers a chance to review what is being covered in the class. They could be made avaiable through the library. Might help with an educated vote. We could also have movie night with donuts. hee hee
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: trussell on February 27, 2010, 08:16:01 AM
Now Shelly, that sounds like you're one of those people that move into town and try to change things. You'd get shot down for sure :)
I kid.
-Trevor :)
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: slpott on February 27, 2010, 09:06:57 AM
Trevor, you are so right. Not always do you have to be "one of those" to find a solution to a problem. Met a lot of pretty bright folk up here in this neck of the woods. It always amazes me that you can do the same thing over and over and expect different results.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: roadkill on February 27, 2010, 09:22:35 AM
Are you serious????? Record Town Meeting then play it back???????? Maybe we can vote for VPT to cover it and get it live and TIVO it at the asame time. Thats the real solution.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: mirjo on March 01, 2010, 09:44:40 AM
So what happened? Who/how many attended? Boom or bust? I am surprised there are no comments on the forum and it's ALREADY Monday!
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: Henry on March 01, 2010, 09:57:51 AM
Gee Mirjo, Henry Raymond wrote a very nice summary I thought at:
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: trussell on March 01, 2010, 10:30:09 AM
...or are you looking for the "dirt", Lisa? ;)
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: roadkill on March 01, 2010, 05:05:33 PM
"dirt" ????????
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: roadkill on March 01, 2010, 06:20:18 PM
I would like to commend the woman who spoke up later in the meeting during ( I Think) the Article "of other Towns business".. She asked that if it were possible to include or do a separate mailing of all the corrections to the budget since we all know mistakes are made. She went into the difficulty of this increddible task, that the work of the Selectboard is fully appreciated for this task. She mentioned that she does a lot of research on other Town budgets or whatever but made it very clear to me and I agree with her, There should be a correction notice sent so that everyone is informed and happy. The historical data is key. I too have been looking at historical data and it is very important to get accurate numbers. I am a firm believer in the more information you give means less headaches. So, What I got out of Town Meeting is agreeing with this woman that all of the information with changes be posted.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: trussell on March 01, 2010, 08:53:31 PM
Roadkill... I was only poking Mirjo a bit- implying that, as a reporter, she was only looking for the dirt
I'm like a secondary little brother for her.
:)
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: roadkill on March 01, 2010, 09:53:14 PM
Thank you for clarifying that Trevor, I just have a problem with the word "dirt" being used instead of the word "Democracy".
I really would like our Selectboard to act on this womans request to provide the missing information from the Town Report and to clarify all the mistakes.
Title: Re: An informal poll for the forum members...
Post by: mirjo on March 02, 2010, 05:15:12 PM
Quote
...or are you looking for the "dirt", Lisa?
I was simply looking for the out come since I wasn't around all weekend and when I tuned into the forum I somehow missed the post (??) I didn't see it at all, otherwise I wouldn't have asked such a stupid question! :-)