Shumlin & Gilbert Signs On People's Lawns Around Town

[GamingWeasel]

Anyone who doesnt pay their taxes, shouldnt be allowed to drive on public roads...or use anything else public.

[Thor]

I agree 100% !! I will send an email to Congressman Charlie Rangel from New York and tell him that he shouldn't do any driving on public roads or use anything else public!! That'll show him!

[GamingWeasel]

Sounds fair to me, hehe.   I think he should be kicked out of Congress.

[Loctavious]

funny how this is SUCH A politically baised thread.... yet we're all playing nice.  If only the reps could do that.  NO thisisn't what happens when Hippies grow up - thisis what happens when either side becomes so deeply entrenched and invested in thier ideologies.

But really - So let me get this straight - it's obvious almost all who've commented in this thread are republican, but i NEED to know if you're ALL for cutting say such 'socialist' programs as say......

'Social' security, or Medicaid/Medicare, or heating assistance, or unemployment or food assistance....
you know the bread and butter programs that support either the most vulnerable or poor sections of our society.  I mean do we just say -"sorry - you're at a disadvantage ( for whatever reason - not all folks are losers deadbeats - and not all kids born into poverty and dysfunction, can get THEMSELVES out) but you need to fend for yourself now."

Please help me believe that one set of folks isn't willing to make decisions that could mean the death/despair sentence to thousands ( if not millions ) of fellow Americans.

[Stand Alone Defense]

Hippie-someone who rejects the established culture; advocates extreme liberalism in politics and lifestyle. 

I still hate hippies LOL

I'm all for these programs but they are broken and to many people abuse them!! Like I said I don't mind giving to people that need it, but when these people take that money and go buy dope or pills to snort thats what pisses me off.  I still say if you get GOV assistance you should be subject to random piss test.

[cedarman]

Politicians who are deliquent on taxes, or haven't paid them should be immediately removed from office.  NO EXCUSES. If the tax code was too complex for you to understand FIX IT.

As for social programs - I believe they have a place.  I am Republican leaning in my political attitudes, but I hate some of the republican parties antics too.  Holding tax cuts for everyone hostage so those at the top (who nobody can honestly say really need it) get/keep cuts is rather extreme, and just gives further support to the criticism that Republicans only fight for the wealthy/rich.

I don't believe social security, food stamps, heating assistance and unemployment should be cut completely, but I think some of those programs could be streamlined to be more efficient in the decision making process about who gets what, and how the benefits are distributed.  I grew up learning that when times are tight, there is less to go around.  Maybe less funding for heating assistance means people have to learn to live with a lower temp setting at home. IF I had limited fuel (due to limited personal budget, or rationing), I'd choose cool or chilly for a long time over warm for a while and them COLD when it runs out.
As I've mentioned before, food stamps could be set up more like WIC - so it only pays for select grocery items, which can be selected to help encourage healthier diets.  From experience, most families getting food stamps are typically getting some sort of public healthcare too (at least for the kids, if not the adults too).
I also agree with the mandatory drug testing for ALL people applying for public assistance (granting an exception to Seniors who have paid into the system and are receiving what they were told they were paying for). Cheap test that are readily available can be used as a screening too.   Those who test positive would receive lab testing to confirm before being denied benefits.

The reality is, without some sort of public assistance, crime rates would be a lot higher, and we would be spending even more money to keep people caged up like animals than we would spend helping them.  As least if we are helping them, there is a chance that some of them will return to being productive members of society, or in some cases, even if the adults don't, the kids have a better chance of being productive and eventually giving back to the communities who helped them.

[Thor]

Cedarman, I seem to agree with you on most points. I too hold the Repubs in some contempt for their stances on different policies / processes. As I mentioned to Mirjo in another thread, I told Boehner to "piss up a rope" when his cronies asked me for a donation to their cause. Reason being, I will only support the folks who are trying to do the right thing. But with regards to the Repub's standing up for the tax breaks for everyone, I have to side with them. And there is only one reason. The liberals/socialists have now defined a millionaire as anyone who makes over $250K a year (married couple). Last time I looked $250K was about $750K short of a milliion, but they want to hammer down on them anyway. I run a small business, and this year my business has done pretty well, and now they want to "punish" me by throwing me into the "millionaire" category. And why? It basically leads right back to things we have discussed in other threads as well as this one. Too much spending. Whether it is social programs or other Departments within the establishment and that is on both the state and federal level. So how can we really find out how the whole system is being run? How about beginning with an audit of the Federal Bank. Oh sure, everyone was onboard with it when it was first brought up, except for Congressman Welch and Senator Leahy. Sanders supported it until he got put on the spot by Harry Reid and then he caved under. (Typical) But until we know what those greedy, little bastards are doing at the Fed, we won't have sound footing to begin planning for the future. Anyway. Just rambling.

With regards to politicians being removed from office for illegal acts..... c'mon now..... whataya thinkin? Are you kidding me? Remove a politician for a "simple mistake" of "not knowing" about certain tax requirements!! Of course he isn't going to be removed from office. Hell, they have had politicians on both sides of the aisle do much worse and only ask for an apology from the turds. They have pedophilia, sexual assault, DUI's, income tax evasion and even murders, on their hands and gotten away with it. They are the dirtiest lot of charecters going. Probably only to be outdone by Cell block "C" in any Federal Prison. Anyway. Again, just rambling. Frustration does that to me.But if you or I had made "a mistake" on our taxes, the damn IRS would be knocking at our door, or potentially kicking it in with their jack booted section. Charlie Rangel gets a slap on the wrist for hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax evasion, but they would kick in your door with a warrant for a few hundred bucks.

[Thor]

Loctavious, you seem to think that we are all of Republican ilk. Although I do lean to the conservative side, I don't unilaterally support all Republican stances. Your question concerning whether or not we are all in support of cutting socialist programs such as Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, heating assistance, unemployment, etc... Well I cannot and never would speak for everyone else who has posted here in this thread, but speaking for myself, would I cut these benefits? Nope. But I don't think I should have to continue to pay into them. Those systems are broken, and I believe it is foolish for me to continue to fund a failing system. Let me keep my money and donate it where I believe it is doing best within MY community. Perhaps when the Feds realize that their Welfare agenda is unsustainable, in current form, they will make the hard decisions to find the money by making cuts elsewhere. You see, in my opinion, it is easy to tug on the heartstrings of americans when you speak of these programs and how cutting them will affect so many. But change the verbage around and speak of it as dollars invested into something that we get no return on, and suddenly even the most generous of folks would agree that we must do things differently or better. As an example, why should I have to continue to contribute to a "gov't insurance scam" such as social security. Most people don't think of social security as a tax, they believe it is some national "retirement insurance" that they pay into in order to "collect benefits" upon reaching retirement age of 65. The reality of it is, the gov't takes our money, and instead of putting it aside, possibly into a low interest, low risk account where it could possibly make money down the road, they spend it on assinine gov't projects. So when the person who has contributed his whole working life hits 65, the gov't does not have the money that person "invested" to pay him or her back. Instead they just pass the bill onto the current working class smuck. This is a Ponzi scheme at its best! Only a civilian Ponzi scheme, such as Bernie Madoff rested on his ability to "convince" folks to invest their money in his scheme. The US gov't doesn't have to "convince" anyone to invest.... they simply use it as a tax. As far as Medicaid/Medicare, for those of us on private health programs, we tend to be a bit more select when it comes to visiting a doctor, as we will have some out of pocket costs associated with each visit, diagnosis, treatment and so on. Once you put people on a system where they do not have to worry about costs, they are free to go to the doctor whenever they want for whatever they want, at someone elses expense. Knowing that allows the doctors and medical profession to charge whatever fee they want, because "the gov't is picking up the tab. Heating assistance programs, are a joke. Just research it through the suppliers who are required to go to a home and give state assisted fuel oil to the home because someone living under that roof is eligible. Then two weeks later, that same person is now living with someone else, and this new address becomes eligible for the heating oil assistance program. Does everyone on this system exploit it this way. No, but until they reign in the culprits, we should not have to continuue to fund it. I would be willing to bet, and Josh Langelier would probably agree on this, but if the legitimate folks needing assistance began turning in the freeloaders and people taking advantage of the sytem, we would begin to see a reduced  amount of people exploiting the sytem. And lstly, should I of any of you have to fund these programs for poeple who are in this country illegally? Hell no. About the only thing I would be willing to fund for illegal immigrants would be the bus fare to send them back to the Mexican border. But once again, the Dems seem to think that they all deserve to become "citizens of this country. Sure, you want to be a citizen, go back to your home country and go through the proper procedures.

Okay enough of my soapbox. Time to go to work.



m

[Loctavious]

Damn thor - soap box9es) indeed! 

You mentioned tugging at the heartstrings of americans as if you believe that's a tactic?  It maybe that to politicians at times - but that's because it IS all about the heart or COMPASSION.  I recently learned of a book that states a case against altruism - that it really doesn't exist as EVERYONE who does somethign nice or generous does it for a self-serving reason - whether or not there's actual physical personal gain ( tax breaks, public recognition, etc) or emotional ( feeling good about yourself)

I don't agree - i believe, i have to believe that the richest most poweful, safest country in the world's citizens, ARE compassionate at the core.  They do care for others in need.  The humans that abuse a good thing exist EVERYWHERE- not just in social programs - they're in politics, big, small, and illegal business, in religious institutions, in hospitals, in our very own places of employment.

if the abusers are the end all be all of the problem - than perhaps we're too narrowly focused - perhaps the Admin should enodrse a Amnesty for Whistle-blowers day where all parts of our society come forward......

But really - human's abusing good things - is a symptom, a side-effect of what our society puts value on, for every good point - there's 2-3 counter productive points.

I wish i had the time at work you do Thor - 'cause oh the time and words we spend on every aspect of that inference.

Langelier - your definition of hippie sounds mighty close to Anacrchist - the difference being the destructive, violent, and intentional underminding of the established goverment status Quo. 

[mirjo]

Thor, I agree about the tax cut off, I think it should start at $400-500K, because even though 1/4 mil is a good income and far better than many people make, it doesn't amount to the same for all areas of the country. Some people live in  vastly more expensive areas than here.

Not that it's much of a consolation, but it's unlikely that you or any small business owner will pay higher taxes unless you make far more than the $250K. I read that it's not based on a small business' gross of 250K, but more of an AGI of $250K (after all the deductions are taken for the business etc). The reality is that only a very small percentage of small business owners would actually pay more.

If you think about it, you know this is how taxes work. If you gross XX, you don't pay taxes on XX. Especially, business owners and others who itemize  deductions for what ever they can to decrease the tax liability. Depending on the type of year a small business has, it's possible to end up with a net loss. Even if you take in over the 250, by the time you finish with your deductions, for expenses,etc., you won't be paying taxes on that total and you will likely fall under the benchmark and be in a lower tax bracket.

I think the press does a great deal of harm in sensationalizing everything, because tons of people are screaming about taxes going up without stopping to think about it for a minute. Personally, they shouldn't have been cut in the first place, I don't see where it did a damn thing to help this country in the first place and--if these "tax cuts" that are being so vehemently argued over were going to do something wonderful, wouldn't they have worked in the ten years they have been in place??

I really have to ask; if they all just expire as planned--is it really going to be a humongous burden, as has been drilled into our heads by the hyperbolic press or will it just be a small percentage that's imperceptible in the week to week of our pay check? Does anyone (other than me) ever think that we're being duped by the freakin press that just wants everyone to argue among themselves? I know it's very paranoid-conspiracy-theory, but who controls the press?

Below are a couple of links to different articles on the subject. Simply for informational purposes. I cannot attest to the accuracy of the content anymore than any other media. I'm certain there are other web articles that would dispute these, that's how it works, tit for tat.


http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/analyzing-the-small-business-tax-hysteria/#more-24769 

http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/17/how-much-will-you-owe-tax-plans-compared/#more-24363

[Thor]

Mirjo, if you want to tax millionaires, then tax millionaires! $400K-$500K is still a far cry from a million. And that is what Pelosi keeps talking about; punishing those terrible rich people. (Pelosis' net worth at latest estimate is approx $20mil). I sure hope she is planning on paying her fair share, unless she has gone to the Charlie Rangel school of taxes.

Again, I do not mind paying taxes. What I do mind is paying taxes to a screwed up gov't that has no concept of how to balance a budget/checkbook. State and Federal.(I know, shortly I will here from jgluck, reiterating to me that according to the VT constitution they don't have to have a balanced budget) Whatever.... that seems to be working very well for us now doesn't it!!?

Loctavious, not sure where you are coming from with your last post. Josh Langelier is probably not an anarchist or even close. He is however probably for limited gov't. But anarchist... I don't think it fits. All he did was define Hippie as one who is against "the establishment".

And I am not sure what you mean when you say "you wish you had the time at work I do". Can you expound?

[Loctavious]

Thor,


didn't call Josh an anarchist - said his definition of a hippie was close to it.  I always viewed hippies as one who rejected conventional vlaues.

as for my comment - it was based on a previous post you made ( quite in depth and detailed - which i enjoyed) where at then end you said back to work.  thus, would ove the time to continue such indepth conversation at my work - but it just doesn't present itself.

[Thor]

Loctavious,

     Yea, after I read how I wrote it, I knew I had mis-implied. I understand you did not call Josh an anarchist. No worries.

     With regards to my work hours, it is crazy. I usually begin my work day around 3:00 AM and work on and off throughout the day until about 10:00PM when I will finally shut things down. When I am here at home, I have the luxury (if you can call it that) of staring at this computer or my cell for most of the day. When I am on the road working, the hours are longer, but not nearly as much time dealing with technologies.

[cedarman]

"against "the establishment". " 

Seems this generalization could be applied to Tea Party supporters too.    Too bad the Republicans view the support they received this past election as support for them to continue doing what they have always done, and not as a call by the people to take measures to reduce the federal deficit and bring spending under control to put our country back on a solid financial foundation.

If we see more of the Republicans pulling stunts like this in the next two years, i suspect we'll see more Dems voted back into office in 2012 simply by default - not as a matter of showing "support" for Dems, but showing disdain for Republican games.

[cedarman]

"Knowing that allows the doctors and medical profession to charge whatever fee they want, because "the gov't is picking up the tab. "

I'm quite certain that fees paid to providers under medicaid/medicare are fixed, frequently at rates below what private insurance companies reimburse at.  Doctor's are not required to accept medicaid, and other than emergency room visits, they are not required to provide treatment to patients in their office.  I read about this recently when looking into VT law about medical bill payment options. 
I also have relative on Medicare who have co-pays for prescriptions, and I think visits too.  It is no longer "FREE".

I do agree that social aid agencies should have dedicated fraud investigation units and hotlines for people to report fraud anonomously. Even that reporting process however can be abused, but it would still be good to have in place.  Maybe the investigators get an annual bonus based on a percentage of the estimated savings so they have an incentive to investigate. To be fair to those applying for aid, investigation units cannot be connected to the eligibility decision making process, and only cases where there is enough evidence for criminal fraud prosecution will result in withdrawing assistance.