S 32 (The Vermont Bill Against Guns)

[Scott]

All good points. Let me just say...

I HATE THE MEDIA.

[nhibbard]

Fast and Furious was such a mess as far as tracking and oversight. I can't see a better example of poor law enforcement work. Even with all the restrictions on direct purchase, it's obvious people can get or modify weapons that do the same damage. I'm not sure how to regulate something like this without holding the every seller responsible down the line.

[Thor]

The media is nothing more than the propaganda arm of the left. They are so in with this administration, but it is understandable. These progressives have been infiltrating the entire system, of schools and universities, media, political system, ACLU.... just about everywhere for a very long time. And of course it is easy to get them to support the lefts' beliefs.... as they have the same ones.

We have the Constitution and the Bill of Rights for a reason. Some very smart patriots saw this coming a long time ago. This administration just plain hates the Constitution which is why he continually goes around it, and Congress. He is as anti 2nd Amendment as anyone I have ever seen. And now with his ObammyCare, is going to have doctors "telling" on patients and neighbors "telling" on neighbors, in order to attempt to prevent another shooting. What about Dr / client privilege?

So the question is... by who's standard is crazy or mentally impaired now defined? And to what level is mental impairment allowed to have a gun? What about those crazy neighbors who own guns and go shooting every weekend? Not crazy people to the people they shoot with at the range every weekend, but they sure are crazy to an anti-gun zealot. Who could possibly want to go shooting on their free time? That's crazy!!

The administration should focus on catching and prosecuting criminals. And work on keeping the weapons out of the criminals hands. It should be easy, as they themselves are or appear to be a criminal organization. They could start on the inside and work their way out.... Eric Holder.... no gun, Tim Giethner... no gun, Van Jones... no gun, and we could go on.

[Stand Alone Defense]

Josh,

Does the high capacity clips pertain to all firearms?  Correct me if I'm wrong again but in reading this does it say if your a have a pistol with a mag that holds more then 10 rounds you could go to jail for up to a year and/or be fined $500?  So I'd have to get new 10 round clips for my beretta!  Not gonna happen

Making it harder for Americans to own firearms, and making it so the honest can only have mags that hold so much ammo is not going to solve anything.  We do NOT have a gun problem in America, we have a society problem!    

I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous when as a nation are we going to stand up and say no more?  Our government continues to pick away at the rights of the honest americans all while they passively let the criminals get away with murder.  Tax the hard working americans to the point they can hardly breath, but then allow millions of americans and non-americans live here while not trying to pull their weight in making this country a better place to live.

Tell you what I will do, I'll continue to go to work every day, pay my taxes, and pull my weight because thats how I was brought up.  I'll try my best to help out others in my community and try to make this place a better place to live because thats how I was raised.  But no matter what laws are put in place I'll be keeping my beretta with both 17 round clips loaded in my night stand to protect myself and my family because again thats how I was raised!  I wont stand by and let my government make me a victim of the society and culture we have created.

Ryan,

Your number one priority is keep yourself and your family safe!!  If someone comes to take your 17 round Mags away you can call me man and I will stand beside you bro.  12 years ago I said these words.... I, Joshua Langelier, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  I still take that oath very seriously!!!!

[Shadylane08]

Thor I agree with everything you say, you word it better than I do

I think it all comes down to two definitions.  "Crazy" & "Assault Weapons"  Like Thor said what’s crazy?  Who’s making the final call on who is "crazy" or "mentally ill"?  Like Thor said is it the individual that shoots every weekend and is well armed and a well practiced and experienced shooter therefore by nhibbards standard should be an individual that should have weapons?  I shoot a decent amount but I guarantee there were some people that read my first couple posts and their first thought was "wow crazy gun guy".  I disagree I think it’s crazy to not have a firearm in your house for protection. I shoot enough to be good so if that situation ever arose I would feel confident not scared.  My wife and I lived on Suzie Wilson road when the Currier situation happened.  We use to walk by their house in the evenings.  Its a nice quiet peacefull neighborhood, and look what happened.  That was the final straw for me, I already owned my pistol but I went out and bought a pistol for my wife too.  She was hesitant to shoot it, it scared her.  I taught her how to use it, and how to be very safe with it.  She isn't scared anymore and is quite confident with it, and let me add she’s very good with it  Listen there is evil all around us, and I believe you owe it to yourself and your family to be able to protect yourself and your family.  Ever heard the phrase when danger is moments away law enforcement is minutes away?  I'll leave it at that.

Other definition, "assault weapon".  If they are trying to ban "assault weapons" they should be able to define it right?  So what is an assault weapon?  As Thor already posted the normal joe can't buy a full automatic firearm so that’s out of the question.  Is it the pistol grips?  I know a lot of turkey shotguns that are sold with pistol grips now. is it the firearms with a heat shield around the barrel? Is it the black firearms?  Thor it the nail on the head, it’s the firearms that looks scary to the people that don't agree with firearms.

As for mandating smaller magazines.  I'm sure some of you read about the woman in Georgia recently that shot an intruder that came into her home looking for her or her kids.  She had a 5 shot revolver, shot all 5 times, hitting him 4 times (apparently she’s a decent shot).  She only had a 5 shot revolver so this doesn't necessarily pertain to her situation, but for the sake of argument let’s say she had a firearm with a 5 shot magazine b/c Obama said that’s all she could have.  So she shoots all 5 times severely injuring this intruder then whoops she just realizes there are actually 2 intruders not one.  Now what?  I bet she would have wished she had at least one more round!  No body that wins a gun fight ever says "boy wish I didn't bring so much ammo".  So I ask why put these kind of restrictions on law abiding citizens when criminals aren't going to play by the same rules?  Do people actually believe by putting these restrictions out there it’s going to stop criminals from using them?

I'll say just one last thing then I'll get off my soap box.  This is a free country let’s keep it that way.  Full government control over everything is not a good thing and our founding fathers put certain things in place to try and protect us from just that . . . our government.

Couple quotes from a very smart man:

- When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty (Thomas Jefferson)

- The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. (Thomas Jefferson)

- My readings of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. (Thomas Jefferson)

[Thor]

Shady,

      As a career military guy and now a law enforcement guy, I have had the experiences of being in many gunfights. I am still here to write my opinions for two reasons.... 1) training, training, training. I used to tell my guys, that rehearsals are the things that save your life in a bad situation. So rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. Think of the worst case scenarios you could encounter in your home, in your car, in a restaurant, in a movie theater, in a shopping mall, etc.... and think about them and train to those scenarios. 2) I have never been accused of not bringing enough bullets to the fight. On one occasion, I carried 28, 30 round magazines into an operation. I didn't shoot them all, but I was damn sure I was not going to run out of rounds before I was able to get myself and my guys out of there. On previous posts in a previous thread here on Henry's website, I wrote down a few beliefs that we had in my unit.

1) Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. And don't worry about moving onto the next threat until the one you are dealing with is eliminated.
2) Bullets are cheap and life is worth everything. Keep shooting until the threat is completely eliminated.
3) Plan for the worst case scenario and hope for the best.
4) Protecting your teammates / family / innocent, defenseless people is the most admirable thing a person can do.

     If protecting our families when in our homes or out in society, our children when they are in the schools or anywhere else is really important, then you have to have well trained people ready to respond when evil strikes. With that said, the good guys have to be on their game 100% of the time. Total situational awareness all of the time. Because the evil people only have to be right once. That is why the shooter in Aurora, Colorado picked the one theater of the 8 near his apartment that did not allow weapons in the theater. That is why the evil doers go to schools. Columbine, VA Tech, Sandy Hook, etc....

     Had one person been carrying a weapon in Aurora, perhaps they could have mitigated the magnitude of the tragedy. It is still a tragedy if only one person had been killed, but if we could have prevented the other 11 from being killed, then we were at least somewhat successful. If an armed guard or armed teacher had been able to confront the Sandy Hook shooter, it still would have been a tragedy if anybody had been killed. But perhaps we would not have had to witness 26 deaths.

      Outlawing semi auto rifles because of their look or appearance, and outlawing high capacity magazines because of the number of rounds is pure stupidity. These ideas are generated by individuals who have no true concept of the effect these laws will have on the bad guys. Which is absolutely NONE! They are playing on emotions of the populace, which is heinous in and of itself to further their agenda.

      I am always willing to assist anyone around here who wants to become educated and trained in order to be better prepared to defend themselves, their families or any innocent folks who need help.

       Okay, now I to, will get off my soapbox. 

[mkr]

Thor, agree with you on all levels and glad to have you near by!

Thanks for taking the time to explan everything so well.  Can we send you to Montpelier/DC now

[Thor]

No MK.... I don't fit in well with the suits. Plus, I would never look someone in the eye and lie to them like most of the politicians today. My parents raised me better than that. I am just a guy who lives by reasonable man theory, who loves my country, and my family. And took an oath many years ago to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. And while we still have external threats to our country, I believe that the biggest threat right now is already here, internal to our system. Idiot politicians who are spending us, our children and our grandchildren into non-existence, trying to socialize our country, trying to legislate away our rights, trampling on our Constitution. That is the threat.

I suppose if I did go, I could bring up legislation to ban scary things like, Pelosi, Feinstein, Rangel, progressives in general, Obammy care and so on. Much scarier than any semi auto rifle or pistol.

I also wouldn't mind shoving a copy of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.... well.... let's just say.... under their doors.

[Chris Santee]

S 32 Public Hearing February 7th in Montpelier, you'll be hearing more about it.

[tfence]

Thor- That was some of the best reading I have done in a long time. Thanks

[nhibbard]

No one can say if an armed person in these situations would have been better or worse. Can you imagine more people shooting at someone in a dark theater? I understand the though, but practically speaking, most people don't have the training or resolve to clearly think in those situations. I say most because there are those who can.

As for the gun nuts, I enjoy the videos just as much as anyone.. FPSRUSSIA is great. Being a gun enthusiast doesn't make you mentally ill, but being bipolar and off meds might qualify. I still don't see gun laws doing much for crime. It'd be more practical to add non invasive protocols at public places to avoid as much risk. Avoid door propping, profile people who might be an issue keep an eye on your guns. Profiling is an art not a science, I don't mean pulling a goth kid aside because of his music and clothes or hunters because they have guns. Watch how people treat people and step in if it looks like someone isn't doing well. Hind sight is 20/20, you can't always see what's wrong with someone, taking away guns won't take away crazy.

[monte198]

A little to think about while the bill is in session.

On Sunday December 17, 2012, 2 days after the CT shooting, a man went to a restaurant in San Antonio to kill his X-girlfriend. After he shot her, most of the people in the restaurant fled next door to a theater. The gunman followed them and entered the theater so he could shoot more people. He started shooting and people in the theater started running and screaming. It’s like the Aurora, CO theater story plus a restaurant!
 
Now aren't you wondering why this isn't a lead story in the national media along with the school shooting?
 
There was an off duty county deputy at the theater. SHE pulled out her gun and shot the man 4 times before he had a chance to kill anyone. So since this story makes the point that the best thing to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun, the media is treating it like it never happened.
 
Only the local media covered it. The city is giving her a medal next week

[Thor]

Monte,

     Excellent post.... too true!

nhibbard,

     Don't get caught up in thinking in a one dimensional environment. The world is 3D. The threat could be above you, below you, to your front, side, rear. With that said, if you think you are responsible enough to carry a weapon with you at all times, hopefully you have felt the obligation / responsibility to get trained with it. Along with that, you have to know your own limitations. And being situationally aware enough to decide whether or not you can help the situation by drawing your weapon and eliminating the threat or not drawing your weapon and not adding to possible collateral damage is a split second call that may have ramifications that you will have to live with for the rest of your life. Assuming you live through the situation.

     But with that said, training your family in how to react to certain situations can be just as advantagous. When we go out to dinner, my family actually knows where I want to sit, in order to allow me the best veiwing of the restaurant, the entrance point and the majority of the people in there and ease of draw for me. Considerations such as where is the closest exit, how many people are between us and the exit, etc... When we walk down the street, they know where to position themselves in order to not hinder me in dealing with a chance encounter on the street. My kids know that if an active shooter in the school makes it into their classroom, everything in their classroom should be considered a weapon and they better use it like their life depends on it. (because it does). Throwing books, throwing chairs, stabbing with pens, pencils.... everything and anything goes. I have taught them to close the distance and try to kill the person with every ounce of effort they can. I preach to them not to die cowering in the corner. But in today's passive society, this would be frowned upon. College students at Virginia Tech, died in a classroom, and did nothing while the shooter conducted a reload. He actually stopped shooting to reload and nobody did anything!

     In a confrontation, you have two things to consider.... distance to the threat, and do I have an out. If the threat is close to you, you have to be willing to immediately close the distance and try to kill the bastard. Or if you think you can run and seek cover, then you can do that. But where are you going to run to in a locked down school? We cannot continue to teach our kids to be sheep, when the wolves are out there.

      This is a mental game, having the ability to throw the switch and do whatever you need to do to save yourself and your family or friends. My kids are well trained with weapons, but my youngest doesn't really have the desire to work with them. My oldest, I would trust with my life to make the right decision and not hesitate to pull the trigger. But again, this speaks to the responsibility to train and train hard. Train in stressful situtaions. Induce the most stress you can without making the training unsafe. Know the weapon you are carrying, the effective range you can employ it, what the backdrop is if you miss, shoot for the torso as it is the largest target to hit on a moving threat and so on. In the old days, we used to train to come through the door and shoot all the bad guys in the head, as that typically ensures an immediate kill. But that was on stationary targets. After we began engaging real targets that were moving in a room, in the dark, and shooting back at us, we realized the error in our ways and began going to the body, as many times as necessary to eliminate the threat. But as I stated before, it is all based on training. And I believe that we can train the average citizen to do fairly well in a high stress situation, if they want to train to that level. And in the end, if they don't feel that they are capable, then the mature, adult decision is whether or not to carry a weapon.

     Last thoughts..... Never bring a hope and a prayer to a gunfight, as usually the bad guy with the gun wins. An armed individual has a chance. An unarmed individual could be the next victim. Typically these individuals that conduct these shootings, shoot themselves as soon as someone with a gun arrives on scene. Perhaps if there was someone armed and trained in any of these tragic incidents, these scumbags would whack themselves even quicker and reduce the loss of life.

     But as you say, hind sight is 20/20. And taking guns away from hopefully safe, well trained, law abiding citizens is certainly not the answer. Evil is out there, always lurking and waiting for the opportunity to strike. And the police usually arrive to conduct the investigation. (not a dig on law enforcement, but they cannot be everywhere all the time). So, for all the sheep that are out there, we have to have people willing to be the sheepdogs and protect the innocent from the wolves.

      Apologies for my lengthy posts. But this is something I feel very strongly about.

[Thor]

Interesting read....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/01/new_york_declares_war_on_the_second_amendment.html


                                                                    Thor

[Norton]

Thor,

I've read many of your posts on this forum and it's clear that you and I disagree on many political issues.  (Some people have even used that nasty "L" word to describe me.)

But I'm with you on this one.

Our politicians, although they can't seem to make any progress on our larger problems, are falling over each other to get to the microphone on this one.  In the end, they will pass legislation that doesn't make much difference.  They'll expand background checks (I'm OK with that, but it won't make much difference because that's not how the bad guys get their weapons), limit magazine size (again, will only effect the law-abiding), and spend lots of time arguing about whether a weapon is fundamentally different because it has a telescoping stock, or a bayonet mount, or is black, or whatever.

To me, the essence of the second amendment is the right to self-defense.  Folks may say that no one needs a 30-round magazine, but what would you do if your door were kicked in by five crackheads?  And maybe no one needs an AR-15 in particular, but if I were ex-military and that was the weapon I was most familiar with, it might well be my choice for self-defense.  (Well, probably not.  But it should be my choice)  Especially since no matter what legislation is passed, there are still 5 million of them out there, and there's no way the government will be able to get them out of circulation.


"Excuse me Mr. Thor, but I'm here at your home representing your government and I'd like you to give me all the magazines you have that hold more than 6 rounds.  And if you have a rifle with a pistol grip, you should hand that over also.”

Yeah, right.