S 32 (The Vermont Bill Against Guns)

[Thor]

Totally agree Norton.

So let's just think about this for a minute... On the day of the Sandy Hook shooting, there were probably somewhere between 5,000,000 and 7,000,000 AR15's out in the general population. And the number of 20 or 30 round magazines that work with the AR style weapon, let's put it at 5,000,000. As typically when one purchases an AR, the manufacturer supplies one magazine with the rifle. Most AR owners own a heck of a lot more mags, but we will stick with the one per gun for now. Now, I don't know for sure if ****bag in Sandy Hook, used the AR, as some are saying it was still in his vehicle, but let's just assume he did. That would mean that (and we will use the low numbers so as not to appear to over-dramatizing this.... on the day that the children and heroic staff at the school were gunned down, 4,999,999 legally owned firearms and 4,999,999 high capacity magazines were not used in an illegal act. And the gun he had was purchased legally, he just acquired it illegally. So why would this need any legislative attention? Why not just figure out the best ways to protect our children while at school? I have now read knuckleheads bill a number of times. About the only thing I can really garner from it, he is afraid of guns!

And lastly, just to stay on the soapbox a bit longer.... Obammy talked about how HE was the one who got bin Laden, how AQ is now on the run. How HE authorized the operation and the SEAL's went in and conducted the raid. So my question is this..... did the guns kill bin Laden or did the SEAL's kill bin Laden. Everyone says the SEAL's got him. So did the gun kill those kids at Sandy Hook or did the shooter kill those kids? Can't have it both ways Obammy.   

[NPM, LLC]

Thor,
ALL very well said.  I have enjoyed reading your posts.  You are very educated and are putting to words what many of us want to say, but may not know exactly how to say it.  Thank you for that.  And to add you said you can't go into a gunfight with a hope & a prayer I guess we are supposed to go in with a piece of paper drawn up by politicians stating we can't have the right to defend or fight back.  This is very scary! 

[Thor]

NPM, and all interested persons,

       I just wanted to pass on a test that I have conducted now for two days. I loaded a couple of guns and laid them on the dining room table. One a long gun.... AR type (scary as it is!) and the other a pistol (with a mag that had way more than 10 rounds) (also very scary). Anyway.... I left those guns there all day, all night and into today. Can you believe those damn things didn't kill anybody!! They didn't kill anyone. They didn't even move. So I took the selector switch off safe on the AR and I actually cocked the hammer on the pistol so it is now in single action. I left them again. Just watching and watching and watching. Nothing happened, except my kids telling me the status of my weapons was unsafe. But those things didn't kill anyone or anything. Never even fired. Must be defective or maybe, just maybe.... this is the experimental results that need to be passed on to that knucklehead Senator Baruth.

        Not sure I can come up with anything else to explain that this guy on the state level and Obammy on the federal level are full of ..it. They are making an attempt to begin breaking down the 2nd Amendment, a piece at a time. And I know that you are all smart enough to know that once the 2nd Amendment goes, the rest are doomed to follow like dominos.

        Spread the word, fight this like your rights depend on it... all of them.

[kevin]

Here's some fun for you.  Check out this link and see if you can guess who said all these things - http://aattp.org/7-famous-quotes-from-a-tyrannical-gun-grabbing-dictator/.

Please tell me how any of these 23 actions are infringing on our 2nd Amendment rights:
1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.
2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.
3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.
4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.
5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.
6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.
7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.
8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).
9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.
10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.
11. Nominate an ATF director.
12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.
13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.
14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.
15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies
16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.
17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.
18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.
19. Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.
20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.
21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.
22. Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.
23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.

Now is the time to have a RATIONAL discussion on this topic (S 32 is not rational).  Saying things like "They are making an attempt to begin breaking down the 2nd Amendment, a piece at a time. And I know that you are all smart enough to know that once the 2nd Amendment goes, the rest are doomed to follow like dominos." is not rational and does not aid in the discussion.  There can and needs to be reasonable steps taken to find a way that mass shootings do not occur with the frequency that happen in this country.  There are a number of things that need to be looked at including, but not limited to, gun control, quality mental health care and enforcement of the current laws.

[tfence]

when are they going to realize that the mental health system is the whole issue here. They need to drop their personal attack on guns and start putting real money into understanding and research on the mental health system. As it stands right now doctors are regulary pilling it away. That is in their minds a quick fix. In a lot of cases it makes the situations worse. Look up SSRI's gone bad. I have a freind that never had a violent episode in his life until they gave him welebran. he is now in a hospital for a violent outburst and they are still giving him the drugs. It is crazy. when are they going to look at this. I understand a lot of times it does work, but not all the time. I also have some experience of people seeking some counceling for some issues and they were denied because they refused the meds. That sounds like a drug pusher. And yes doctors do get insentives when the do push meds.

[Thor]

Tfence,

     That is it. But we cannot allow them to force doctors to "tell" on their patients.

Kevin,

      Okay, you want a "rational" discussion. Let's do it:

1) Which part of "shall NOT be infringed" in the 2nd Amendment do you not understand.

2) Background checks.... okay, I will take a little bit more pain to get my weapons, but it ain't going to effect the bad guys at all.

3) You want better mental health care..... well just wait and see what happens to the system as more and more doctors leave the health care system because of Obammycare.

4) You want to protect the kids. Don't we all, but the difference between you and I is that I am a realist and live by reasonable man theory. You think gun control is going to protect all of the kids. While a wonderful thought, and it must be very nice in your utopian society, we will differ here. I think that by adding more guns to the schools, in the hands of well qualified security is the answer. And even then there are still risks. The good guys cannot be everywhere all the time.

5) Where was the "rational" discussion on the national level? NRA was invited to the meeting only to sit there and listen to all the gunhater groups. Now the NRA supporters are being compared to the Nazi's, and al Qaeda.

6) Where is the rational discussion on the state level? Knee jerk reactions by uneducated politicians.

7) Do you realize that more people were killed in Chicago last year, than the number of our servicemembers who were killed in Afghanistan? Toughest gun laws in the country right there.

Many folks have posted here agreeing that we need to fix the system, but not by screwing with the law abiding citizen. If I want a 100 round drum magazine, I should be able to have it, regardless of how scary it looks. I would say focus on the criminals and not the law abiding.

When you figure out how to legislate away, evil, crime, mental issues, drug abuse..... please put it out there, as there are many, many folks who want to hear about it.

What I don't need is Baruth, Biden or Obammy telling me what I can and cannot have.

[NPM, LLC]

Please tell me exactly how more laws (more pieces of paper) are going to help our country and protect my children and yours.  The people doing the killing are going to kill one way or another.  If they don't own a gun they'll steal one or go to the corner and buy one illegally.  Again, how is a piece of paper going to stop that?  Is the piece of paper going to stop illegal sales of guns?  NO!   And if they can't get a gun, they'll find another way to complete what they've set out to do.  Personally I am surprised that we have not seen car bombs and suicide attacks in the US.  We hear about them every day on the news, but surprisingly not here.  Exploring mental health issues is fine, but let's get people jobs so they can put food on the table, have a decent place to live and bring some morals back to this country. When you don't have a job, you can't provide for your family, your mental health state does diminish.  You may resort to drugs and alcohol to numb the feelings of failure, hunger, anger & more.  Video games have a similar affect on the mind.  You shoot and people get right back up or you can push reset and they are alive again.  Those sort of games also numb the senses when you play them all the time.   So, how are more laws and taking away guns going to solve the problem in our country?  It isn't.  In fact with the state of world in such turmoil it makes me want to go out and buy the biggest, baddest guns out there just so I'll be able to defend your family and mine....and yes, I'm I pretty damn good shot (for a girl).

[kevin]

Thor,

1)In case you were not aware the 23 points that I listed are the recommendations/executive actions that President Obama has put forth in response to the current political discussion on gun control.  These are what I was referring to when I asked where our 2nd Amendment rights were being infringed upon.  If you read them carefully you will see that there is no infringing taking place.  I understand "shall not be infringed."  So, referring back to my original question...please tell me how these are infringing on 2nd Amendment rights.

2) Wow a point we can agree on.

3)There is not a possible shortage of doctors but a rather a possible shortage of primary care physicians.  And the Affordable Care Act is not the primary cause of this shortage.  Like many issues there are other factors to this.  Some of these factors are an aging population and new doctors becoming specialists instead of primary care physicians.

4)  I do not live in a utopian society but I also don't live in the fantasy land of "man theory" where guns solve all the problems.  Armed officers in schools can help but are not the answer.  We already have proof of this.  In Columbine, CO there was a police officer at the high school and 2 more arrived within 3 minutes of the beginning of the attack.  These 3 officers exchanged gunfire with the attackers and did not stop them.  In fact they did not even injure them.  The good guys were there in this instance, had guns and were unable to stop the situation.  I will concede that armed officers are a deterrent but they are not the only answer.

5) The NRA is not a lead by rational people and therefore cannot be relied upon to offer reasonable answers.  Don't agree with me, then please see this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miSjgv1MH7s.  Now read this - http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/4-pinocchios-for-a-slashing-nra-ad-on-security-at-sidwell-friends-school/2013/01/16/95b2127a-6032-11e2-9940-6fc488f3fecd_blog.html?fb_ref=sm_btn_fb  The fact that the NRA will not consider any gun control at all means that they can't see the whole issue.  How can they be involved in the discussion when they can't act from an unbiased position.  And people on both sides of the debate are compared to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, et al.  This is extreme and inaccurate.

6)  The discussion on gun control on the state level in VT is going to be in early February at the State House.  I think the date is Feb 7.  It remains to be seen how rational this discussion is.

7)  Yes.

So as a law abiding citizen you would like to own what ever you feel is necessary to make yourself feel safer.  Just remember that since this stuff is available to you then the bad guys will have it too.  You might want to join NPM and get the biggest, baddest gun out there.

Isn't it possible, just possible, that if magazine sizes were restricted it might reduce the carnage in mass shootings?  You stated that you teach your kids to attack an attacker when the attacker is reloading.  Would it be better to wait for 30 or 100 bullets to finish firing before attacking or how about waiting until just 5 or 10 have been fired?

I am not in favor of banning guns.  Enforce the laws on the books, have better mental healthcare and maybe just maybe have some sort of gun control.

NPM - If someone plays violent video games and translates that into reality because they have become numb to the violence then that person has other issues.  A violent video game or movie does not make someone go out and be violent.  This is akin to blaming music for violence, drug abuse and sex (look up the Parents Music Resource Center and the "Filthy Fifteen").  Not having a job does affect your mental health but wouldn't having a solid mental health system to turn to help your handle your issues?  Go ahead and buy the biggest, baddest gun out there - one might be the 500 Smith & Wesson .50 caliber Magnum (http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/recreation/1277336) .  If you prefer rifles you could get the ASquare Hannibal 557 Tyrannosaur (http://www.gizmag.com/the-most-powerful-sporting-rifle-in-the-world/9051/).  These ones are pretty big so you might want to practice...even if you're already a pretty damn good shot.

[Thor]

Kevin,

      I recognized your list of 23 "points" that Obammy put forth on recommendation from Biden. But I would hardly agree with you calling it a "political discussion". More like a witch hunt.

      The Columbine shooters were shooting for 46 minutes. 6 minutes into their rampage, they encountered their first police officer and exchanged fire with him. There was a School Resource Officer (SRO) assigned to Columbine, but on that day he was not at the school. The policeman they exchanged fire with was responding to the two pipe bombs they had set off as a diversionary charge in a field near the school.

      The fact that the police officer was unable to stop them speaks to training. Perhaps it was his first armed encounter. Perhaps he had not witnessed such carnage before and was shocked at the destruction. Perhaps he was following department rules about not entering a structure without a shooting partner. Perhaps the standard operating procedure was to call in the SWAT team. Perhaps he should have carried many more high capacity magazines. Perhaps he should have spent more time on the range or trained on something other than paper targets. We will never know.

       But neither one of them had an "assault rifle". They each had a 9mm pistol and a 12 guage shotgun. No assault rifles used here.

       In my opinion one of the things that allowed for them to be so successful in their attack, was because of the reaction of the students. When the two entered the library where they killed 10 of the 12 people they killed, no one fled. No one fought back, no one did anything except cower. How do we know that.... because they actually let a kid go that they knew and he was debriefed extensively.

       With regards to the NRA and the fact that they can't act from an unbiased position.... are you kidding me.... do you think Biden's working group was being unbiased?

       Things that I want to own are already in the hands of the bad guys. You ever take down a drug house? You ever stop a mule vehicle for the cartels? Trust me.... the bad guys have this stuff already.

       Only sheep will wait for the shooter to be reloading before trying to do something. It has to be game on the moment they hear something or the commotion starts. Perhaps we should do a drill where we set up a bullet trap in the school, put the kids in their classroom and shoot a few shots in the hallway. Then they would know what the danger sounds like and the students and staff would know that something is very, very wrong. In Columbine, students actually kept walking in the hallway towards the shooters, because they didn't know what was going on.

       Your not in favor of banning guns, but "maybe, just maybe, have some sort of gun control". You obviously DO NOT understand "shall NOT be infringed".

       Your sarcasm about getting the biggest, baddest gun falls way short. I would love to talk weapons, ammunition, internal ballistics, transition ballistics, external ballistics and interior or terminal ballistics, building assaults, urban operations and active shooter response with you, but I don't have time. I gotta head off to the range. The sheepdogs never have time to rest.

[kevin]

I'm done since you can't see any side of the issue but your own.  So much for engaging in conversation.

[tfence]

Interesting reading http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/2013/01/18/napolitano-guns-and-the-government/

[tfence]

This was writen by a freind of mine. Bill Jolly, NH.
I've been in the military for almost 26 years. I was a cop for about 7. When the "black helicopter " crowd would say that they were getting ready for when "they" come, I wondered who "they" are, since I would assume that I would be part of the anticipated "them" and that I (personally) will never seize any property owned by a citizen of the U.S.. Almost to a person, I have gotten the impression that my fellow soldiers and police officers have a similar sentiment.
 
With that said, I do believe that there is an effort under way at the highest levels to move our nation to a more fascist existence. The people in power who are pushing for gun registration know full well that having a serial number on file will do absolutely nothing to slow the pace of crime, and that criminals will not register their guns. This is simply the exploitation of an absolute tragedy for the purpose of control of people's ability to live freely.

[Thor]

tfence,

     Your friend Bill obviously remembers the oath he took.

     And I know that Kevin has given up, because "I can't see any side of the issue by my own", when in fact, it was because I wouldn't agree with his side of the issue. But he failed to see the whole picture of this gun control legislation. First of all, three of Obammys' 23 executive actions are labeled as "Presidential Memorandums" (#'s 1, 9, 14) are unconstitutional. Beyond his desires, Feinstein will be introducing her "Assault Weapons Ban" legislation on Tuesday the 22nd. I thought I would include just a couple of the items listed in her legislation.

Ban the sale, transfer, importation, and manufacturing of 120 specifically named rifles, shotguns and handguns!

Ban the sale, transfer, importation and manufacturing of ALL firearms with a detachable magazine and at least one "military characteristic"

Ban the sale, transfer, importation, and manufacturing of magazines holding more than 10 rounds;

Force owners of ALL "grandfathered" weapons to undergo an intrusive background check and fingerprinting-- treating law-abiding citizens like criminals;

Force owners of ALL "grandfathered" weapons to federally register their guns after obtaining a permission slip from local law enforcement showing their guns are not in violation of state or local law.

If you own a $10 magazine that’s more than 10 rounds, you’ll have to register it with the BATFE in their National Firearms Registry.

     
      If that is not infringing on the 2nd A, then I do not know what is.

[rod anode]

thor your just a big bullie ,and im glad

[Chris Santee]

Senator Baruth is withdrawing the bill.