Brawl Between Two Groups Of Males In Burlington - 1 Stabbing

[Henry]

Neighbors who witnessed the incident told Fox 44 News that bats, other pieces of wood and knives were used in an all-out brawl between the two groups.  Those neighbors, concerned for their safety, did not wish to be identified.  Click on the following link for more details:

http://www.fox44.net/Global/story.asp?S=8966334

[Henry]

More of the story on WPTZ web site - Sure doesn't sound like Vermont when you read it:

http://www.wptz.com/news/17414670/detail.html

[Loctavious]

Where i agree that something needs to be done about the violence in our state, I definitely do not encourage or condone others getting directly involved.

Where i've intervened in the past in similar situations to help others, i've also paid the price for it, in the form of bodily injury and property damage.  As well, in this day and age - fights aren't what they use to be.  A mere 20 years ago, fights were contained to fists and the winner taught the loser a lesson ( whether good or bad)  and that was it.  ( not counting your average bullies)

Now-a-days, especially in rural and impoverished areas, fights don't solve anything, they escalate situations.  They also have no honor involved what so ever.
A fight today has a HIGH liklihood of a weapon being involved. 

I state a death last year in a domestic fight, in which i knew the guy.  He wasn't a model citizen - had actually served some time for some bad things ( as he should've).  He heard the fight, went to help and wound up dead in 20 minutes do to a stab wound.

Where it may be neighborly and morally right to help someone in need, I think there's a question that should be asked, "is this worth my life?"  oR maybe " what will my family - wife daughter and grandkids do when i'm dead?  praise me formy selfless act of good?  Set out to make a difference in our state?

Srry, i value life and my family a lot more.  If i witnessed that, i perhaps may have yelled something out a window, something to the effect that cops were called and on their way.  But if someone suggested to me that i should've gone out and attempted to break up a fight where there were multiple people with weapons and hell bent on violence - i'd say "right after you."  that would be fool hearty at best.  In fact, i venture to say that if you were to ask a police officer what should've been done - they'd have said the same thing, " call the police and stay inside."  They're not stupid and are VERY aware of how things could go.
to think otherwise is dangerously irresponsible.  This isn't the 50's where it was 1on 1 and only fists and when it was over it was over.  Today, you can count on weapons of some sort, you can count on gangs coming to fight 1 person's fight, and you can count on the loser, if he/she lives, to retaliate with double the force. 
My father always said you don't live long by taking unneccesary risks.

Now, if it was a gang against 1 person, that would be different as that clearly could be a case of life and death.

[Henry]

Latest report states that this is not a gang related incident.  Click on the following link for more details from The Burlington Free Press:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080908/NEWS02/80908025

[Loctavious]

And i wish you well in that endeavor.  may you guardian angel keep you safe.

[fletchtb]

Dearon,

I don't know if I would equate an increase in violence with US immigration policy. That seems a bit prejudicial. While I think you make a valid point in regards to bystanders doing nothing, I say shame on you for bringing a fear of "foreigners" into the conversation. I think it is thoughts like this that are probably more dangerous for our state and country than a handful of violent acts against individuals.

Respectfully,
Todd

[fletchtb]

What statistics show that increased violence in Vermont or the US is a direct result US Immigration Policy?

I am looking for either a link to a report or the specific name of a report or reports I can review.

[NorthFairfaxBoy]

I think I see dearon's point..the US has an open door policy.  The US really does nothing to verify the backgrounds of people coming here.  How do we know what the they or the rest of the family was like in their native countries?  Were they involved in crimes?  Why did they leave? 

I am prejudice against people like this.  Not their whole race and nationality, just the ones that cause the problems. 

[Henry]

Googled Chokden and came up with this??  Have no idea if it is the same person or not, but would be interesting indeed to know what the backgrounds of both of them are.  Interesting that both of the first ones arrested appear to have foreign names.  I understand from news reports that more will be arrested.

[msm]

My two cents --  Loctavious is right on ---  The fights of day typically include weapons.  This applies to the large urban areas and the rural regions too.   ( think about Alicia Shanks  ) The last thing I would do would intervene between two groups that are looking to harm each other .. I too have a family which depends on me.  Sure i would call 911 to report the disturbance,  but let the prefessionals handle the crazies ( regardless of race or country of origin ) .. And correct me if I'm wrong -- doesn't dearon live behind a steel fence ??!!  What is she afraid of ?     

[fletchtb]

NorthFairfaxBoy,

My comments do not reflect approval of our country's immigration policy. I think immigration regulation is far from perfect. With that said, I see no correlation with a rise in violent crime in Vermont and an increase in recent immigrants living in the state. I see thinking along the lines of blaming crime on foreigners as being even more damaging than the event that took place in Burlington. First, I don't believe the statement to be correct. Second, I think it could lead to decent people being treated unfairly due to a prejudicial bias. Third, I think it could lead to Vermonters ignoring or missing the true cause of an increase in crime, by trying to assign the blame on the influx of recent immigrants.

[dearon]

My two cents --  Loctavious is right on ---  The fights of day typically include weapons.  This applies to the large urban areas and the rural regions too.   ( think about Alicia Shanks  ) The last thing I would do would intervene between two groups that are looking to harm each other .. I too have a family which depends on me.  Sure i would call 911 to report the disturbance,  but let the prefessionals handle the crazies ( regardless of race or country of origin ) .. And correct me if I'm wrong -- doesn't dearon live behind a steel fence ??!!  What is she afraid of ?     

Mike,
I chose to live behind a fence for privacy.  I don't like ATV's and snowmobiles driving through my property and the constant intusion of hunter thinking they can hunt where ever they want without permission.  Privacy Mike!

[Loctavious]

let's not forget WHY our immigration policy is the way it is.  If you think of the quote on Ellis Island, it IS an open invitation based on good nature.  'We'll take your citizens that you do not value.'  Let's not forget who we really are.  A VAST majority of ALL of us ARE IMMIGRANTS.  Sure you may have generations of natively born relatives, but A LOT of our origins are NOT FROM THIS COUNTRY.

ALSO, remember that those who first came here to colonize - though seeking freedoms and escape from tyranny, eventually fell to Hypocracy as we forced how many Native Americans ( A lot of whom had offered us peace and prosperity) off their land if not outright killed them.

Let's not get into some sort of Holier than thou argument against present day immigrants.  RACIAL PROFILING IS prejudice - and that's what's happening here.  I like what one poster said above - in a certain sense - "I'm prejudice against those who bring crime and violence here."  ( never mind that posters comment on foreigners as well).  Looking at it from that point of view, than the white american folks from the rural and urban areas of our country deserve the same sort of prejudice as, and please correct me if Im wrong, Those folks make-up the majority of the violence and crime in our country - where immigrants are a smaller percentage.

When it comes down to it, and as some have suggested, We NEED to make our world a better place.  AND as some have suggested, that means personal sacrafice.  By finding ways of justifyng Racism and prejudice, one perpetuates and spreads it.  I sincerely hope folks around here aren't passing those values onto their kids, becuase then they're just contributing to the problem and defacing others work to annihilate it.  Humans will never evolve t opeace if we don't take a stand against our own inability to get along.

[Loctavious]

I did read dearon, .... and after about the sixth page found the information to be littered with disclaimers of the inadequacies of the some of the information and how they go about making 'adjustments' to make it more neutral.  ALSO, where that may be a really valueable source of information for a professional in the field - that's a real bad read for the average joe.
I'm intrigued - why did you post that link to a 53 page report anyway?  To educate others on your stance or just educate others?

If i were to psot a resource for others to read and see my point a little better, i'd post something like this:

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/south03a.htm

Which clearly outlines an inclination towards disporpotionate arrests in this country amongst people of color.  But then that might actually go the other way right?  where it strengthens the argument for racism in the justice system.

Granted Vermont was a leader in the abolition of slavery, i wouldn't go as far to say that it's the shing example of racial acceptance either.

Also, it may be that i misinterpreted what you were trying to say by your statement:
"With the influx of people from foreign countires we seem to be having more and more violence.  Our wonderful state's reputation will be tarnished if we don't put a swift end to this violence."  The second sentence is what i interpreted as you suggesting we address the foreigner violence in our state - instead of ANY VIOLENCE in our state

[fletchtb]

Dearon,

You have posted a link to a report that was conducted to see if minorities are treated with the same degree of fairness as white people in the State of Vermont. The report is studying why Blacks and Native Americans are arrested and incarcerated at a higher rate proportionate to their white counterparts. The report also looks at Asians, who seem to be arrested and incarcerated at an even lower rate than whites. I believe you admit in your posting that this report does not at all comment on the impact of foreigners as it relates to crime. I did not read anywhere in the report any opinions (either for or against) that crime was rising in the state or what the cause of that might be.

As far as your comment about foreigners versus immigrations, I am not too clear. My loose definition of the term foreigner would be anyone who was born outside of the US living or visiting the US. Each of those foreigners arrived in the US under some form of our country's immigration policy. They either applied to live here and were approved to do so by the government, or they are living here illegally due to lack of enforcement of the same policy.

I think you have offered no proof that foreigners are responsible for an increase in crime in our state or our country. Sure there are foreign born people in our prisons as I am sure there are Americans in prisons in other countries, but are our communities less safe because of foreigners? I think that if you believe we are less safe because of foreigners you are prejudiced and that is far more dangerous to all of us than the individual acts of violence themselves.